Author Topic: Question Time / This Week #5  (Read 3996 times)

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Bisto

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2018, 21:24:49 PM »
Bloody hell...Jordan Peterson was on QT!!  And placed next to Diane Abbott to boot.  I'm pretty sure they do these things on purpose.


Peterson is a fascinating character, I've a lot of time for him. I do wonder how much longer he can keep this breakneck pace up though? He's come such a long way in such a short span of time.
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Matt2112

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2018, 22:25:52 PM »


Peterson is a fascinating character, I've a lot of time for him. I do wonder how much longer he can keep this breakneck pace up though? He's come such a long way in such a short span of time.



Absolutely.  The (in)famous half-hour interview with Channel 4’s dreadful Cathy Newman is an absolute must-see.  I’d never heard of him before it.  I’ve never seen such a conceited, over-promoted broadcaster on a hatchet mission and fixated on regressive identity politics so utterly, calmly, clinically annihilated as Newman was by Peterson.


He’s brilliant on issues like that, but somewhat bizarrely incoherent when being an apologist for religious piety.  There’s plenty of stuff to peruse on Youtube (assuming there’s time to spare) where he locks horns with Sam Harris and they have interesting and amicable discussions on that score.
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Bez

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2018, 22:51:06 PM »
QT was bloody awful this week.
The Tory woman was a dick, Sorotca(sp?) was a c*** talking the Corbyn line evry time he opened his mouth about an election- you had one and lost, remember? The labour guy was a dick. The Telgraph guy was a dick and the Plaid woman didn't get a word in....
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DavidL

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2018, 23:14:56 PM »
QT was bloody awful this week.
The Tory woman was a dick, Sorotca(sp?) was a c*** talking the Corbyn line evry time he opened his mouth about an election- you had one and lost, remember? The labour guy was a dick. The Telgraph guy was a dick and the Plaid woman didn't get a word in....
I agree. Clare Perry was an arse and Serwotka turned every answer to his own narrow agenda. Not very often I think the most reasonable panellist is a Labour MP!

Matt2112

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2018, 12:41:38 PM »
I agree. Clare Perry was an arse and Serwotka turned every answer to his own narrow agenda. Not very often I think the most reasonable panellist is a Labour MP!


Thirded.  Claire Perry is simply deranged.  The Labour guy is actually a likeable chap (he was also on not so long ago) even if I don’t agree with half the things he says.
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Bisto

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM »



Absolutely.  The (in)famous half-hour interview with Channel 4’s dreadful Cathy Newman is an absolute must-see.  I’d never heard of him before it.  I’ve never seen such a conceited, over-promoted broadcaster on a hatchet mission and fixated on regressive identity politics so utterly, calmly, clinically annihilated as Newman was by Peterson.


He’s brilliant on issues like that, but somewhat bizarrely incoherent when being an apologist for religious piety.  There’s plenty of stuff to peruse on Youtube (assuming there’s time to spare) where he locks horns with Sam Harris and they have interesting and amicable discussions on that score.



I've not delved too much into the religious stuff but so far what I've heard hasn't been too offensive. He does have a Science background underpinning his 25 years of practice as a clinical Pyschologist and he seems to have a more Jungian and utilitarian take on the Bible from what I've seen rather than a literal, evangelical one. He hates the rampant deconstructionism of the Marxist left and appears to have a very clinical, almost Libertarian approach to interpreting  and formatting social data and facts that reminds me of Friedman and Sowell in particular, and I think that keeping the interpetive political bias out of the data as it it is administered and implemented into Law, and the workings of Government departments and programs is the only rational way in which to organise any society....(Utilitarian solutions, limited Government and devolved power are the way to go imho);...however, I do think he's as guilty of throwing the baby out with the bath water over postmodernism as the extreme left are with Capitalism, which is something he often accuses them of.


Whatever you might think about his religious beliefs, he is an important intellectual thinker and his popularity and notoriety is helping to promote deep thinking, enquiry and public debate on very important issues outside of the usual confines of the Universities, political think tanks and frankly useless, scripted TV shows such as QT etc. which can only be a good thing imho...plus he seems a genuinely honest, self critical and down to earth man who is well aware of his own fallibilities and weaknesses.


Im NOT in any way comparing myself to him as a Thinker, that would be ludicrous, but I have a lot of time for him and Canadians in general; the older I become the more I am aware of my own lack of intellectual prowess, critical thinking skills, breadth of knowledge and understanding and of my many, many character flaws; I'm also someone who struggles to keep a lid on their temper and frustraion at times, especially when confronting/confronted by idiots and c***s, but I was brought up to be respectful and tolerant, somewhat reluctantly so, and therefore seeing him straining to keep his Canadian reserve and manners in a similar way (though obviously under far more challenging circumstances) is both amusing and somewhat reassuring. 😁
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 12:06:36 PM by Bisto »
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Slim

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2018, 12:06:11 PM »
I don't often watch QT these days but I was in a hotel in Chelmsford with not a lot else to do on Thursday night, so I did.


Was delighted to see the redoubtable Claire Perry present - probably the best performer on radio / TV interviews and debates of any of the parties, and yep - she took on all comers and slapped them down mercilessly. Exactly the sort of fearless, no-nonsense willingness to get stuck in and punish our opponents for their stupidity that's conspicuously lacking from the leader of our party at the moment. Superb, and I was delighted to see her calling Corbyn out for the raging anti-semite that he is. No quarter given; zero shit taken from the Momentum mouth-breathers in the audience.


Having said all that, I didn't agree with a word she said about May's Instrument of Surrender to the European Union, but I had to admire her elequent passion and the power of her delivery. Bravo.


Like others who have commented I do have some time for Labour's Barry Gardiner; he may be consistently wrong but he does maintain a level of dignity and decorum that seems rather out of place in today's Labour Party. I have to say though that his defence on this programme of his party's position on Brexit is rather hypocritical, given that he is on record as describing it, quite correctly of course, as "bollocks".


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/10/labour-minister-barry-gardiner-sorry-good-friday-agreement-shibboleth


I thought the Telegraph's Tim Stanley was excellent - couldn't disagree with a word he said, even during his blue-on-blue with Claire. Unfortunately he comes across as a bit cold and charmless.


I can't actually remember anything that Cymru's Liz Saville Roberts said.

Who else? Ah yes, the Corbynista union leader clown Mary Serwotka. The despicable man who memorably suggested that the Labour anti-semitism row was an inside job by the Israelis. Be wary of anyone who starts a sentence with "I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but.."


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-antisemitism-israel-corbyn-mark-serwotka-tuc-trade-union-pcs-a8535986.html


As I recall his answer to every question raised by the audience was a General Election, in order to allow the healing power of Hard Left Socialism to bring about the prosperity needed for health care and housing, as it has done to such great effect in Venezuela.


Slim

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2018, 11:46:19 AM »
Interested to see the discussion about Jordan Peterson. I have a lot of time for him as well (as you might expect, since he's become a bit of a darling of the right) but I'm a bit uneasy about some of his shtick. I loved his takedown of Cathy Newman and agree with his view on the so-called gender pay gap, and on gender identity for example. He's been a breath of sane fresh air on topics where the default position seems to involve switching off your brain.
Spot on on the basic stupidity in the idea of the EU and the likelihood of the whole thing falling apart.

"I think the European state is doomed. Because it grew too fast. There's not the proper hierarchy of identification. People are saying - "wait, Brussels? Who the hell are you guys? Why are you making decisions for us?"
And are you sure that Greece and Germany can be in the same place? Because that's by no means self-evident. The Germans aren't happy about it; the Greeks aren't happy about it.One of the rules for making organisations is that it's a lot easier to make a functional organisation worse, than it is to make a dysfunctional organisation better."

But his idea on white privilege for example. I find it troubling. Here's what he says:

"I think the idea of white privilege is absolutely reprehensible. And it's not because white people aren't privileged. You know, we have all sorts of privileges, and most people have privileges of all sorts, and you should be grateful for your privileges and work to deserve them, I would say. But, the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime, regardless of the specific innocence or guilt of the constituent elements of that group, there is absolutely nothing that's more racist than that. It's absolutely abhorrent".

I think he's right in what he says here strictly speaking, but that misses the point, doesn't it? It may be a natural function of community, rather than of racism as many assume (obviously that does contribute to it, to be fair). But that doesn't mean it's not real. I think he misses the point.

I also find the old-fashioned conservative stuff about toughening up young men and all that a bit backward and stale. And I was troubled to see him supporting Tommy Robinson when he was banged up, that's a big red flag for me.

I suspect he's not much less an atheist than I am, and he's come up with a formula to compromise his religious view to avoid offending the right-wing Christians who support him. The usual thing of abstracting the idea of "God" until it's almost meaningless.

Bisto

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2018, 17:05:03 PM »

Interested to see the discussion about Jordan Peterson. I have a lot of time for him as well (as you might expect, since he's become a bit of a darling of the right) but I'm a bit uneasy about some of his shtick. I loved his takedown of Cathy Newman and agree with his view on the so-called gender pay gap, and on gender identity for example. He's been a breath of sane fresh air on topics where the default position seems to involve switching off your brain.
Spot on on the basic stupidity in the idea of the EU and the likelihood of the whole thing falling apart.

"I think the European state is doomed. Because it grew too fast. There's not the proper hierarchy of identification. People are saying - "wait, Brussels? Who the hell are you guys? Why are you making decisions for us?"
And are you sure that Greece and Germany can be in the same place? Because that's by no means self-evident. The Germans aren't happy about it; the Greeks aren't happy about it.One of the rules for making organisations is that it's a lot easier to make a functional organisation worse, than it is to make a dysfunctional organisation better."

But his idea on white privilege for example. I find it troubling. Here's what he says:

"I think the idea of white privilege is absolutely reprehensible. And it's not because white people aren't privileged. You know, we have all sorts of privileges, and most people have privileges of all sorts, and you should be grateful for your privileges and work to deserve them, I would say. But, the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime, regardless of the specific innocence or guilt of the constituent elements of that group, there is absolutely nothing that's more racist than that. It's absolutely abhorrent".

I think he's right in what he says here strictly speaking, but that misses the point, doesn't it? It may be a natural function of community, rather than of racism as many assume (obviously that does contribute to it, to be fair). But that doesn't mean it's not real. I think he misses the point.

I also find the old-fashioned conservative stuff about toughening up young men and all that a bit backward and stale. And I was troubled to see him supporting Tommy Robinson when he was banged up, that's a big red flag for me.

I suspect he's not much less an atheist than I am, and he's come up with a formula to compromise his religious view to avoid offending the right-wing Christians who support him. The usual thing of abstracting the idea of "God" until it's almost meaningless.



Im fairly new to him but have found some of his pronouncements to be quite confrontational, and I think that is mostly deliberate but, to be fair, I think its usually more in response to the kind of Marxist rants he constantly faces and the media hatchet jobs, pprsonal attacks and the ways in which his opponents try and frame him politically. I'm not suggesting I have a more correct view on him re those points but you might benefit from reading or listening to Peterson a bit more widely rather than taking those points in isolation; for instance he believes in allowing people such as Robinson free speech not only as a way of advancing debate and dialogue and exposing Racism, Fascism, Marxism etc. but of making and keeping them visible and in the public domain rather than driving them underground.


Peterson is about promoting the individual and he sees the individual (as well as Society as a whole) benefitting the most from each individual taking on the maximal amount of responsibility, living meaningful lives and transforming the world through speaking the truth diligently and forthrightly; there's a sense In which he sees that as somewhat akin to God creating order from chaos through logos and by confronting the shadow, another one of his favourite themes...he's quite the Jung devotee in fact


I suspect that he wouldn't call himself a born again Christian but I have no doubt that he sincerely believes that the scriptures provide a useful, perhaps even essential, blueprint for how one should live....he certainly has gone very deeply into the meaning of Genesis and the Architypal structures and meanings contained in the creation stories; he does also credit the teachings of other religious traditions, but, being a Westerner he sees the Bible as the most important narrative in forming the Judao-Christian tradition that has shaped Western ideas and ideals of Morality, Democracy and Culture...even Capitalism...so much so that he sees them as being encoded in our psyche.



As regards missing the point on white privilege, he is very clear about advocating equality of opportunity (rather than outcome, which he views as abhorrent) b there are some very difficult barriers to breach; Peterson uses Scientific data to back up his assertions, he argues that apparent privelege is more often than not a function of competence hierarchies working themselves out in individuals and socioeconomic structures within society...he also draws attention to the Pareto distribution effect...which are naturaly occuring phenomena and nothing to do institutional bias...for instance it's seen in the disproportionate distribution of matter in certain areas of the Cosmos, in the growth of Trees and Cities...there are also other factors, which are very difficult to confront but which are nontheless undeniable, such as ghettoisation, which in itself leads to the lowering of the standard, quality and relevance of education experienced by black males in particular....and, probably the most contentious of all, the unequal distribution of IQ amongst different homogenous racial groups, which has implications and adverse consequences for young black men in particular, certainly in the USA


The minimum wage also prices many uneducated people out of certain jobs which in turn prevents them from economic and social advancement as they can't learn on the job skills which would give them experience and enhance their CVs and future prospects...this has an effect on family stability...there is a huge correlation between the institution of the minimum wage in the USA in the 1960's and the decrease in the number of 2 parent black families, the decline in literacy, college and high school graduation and the rise in the number of convicted, male, black offenders. None of that is down to Racism.
Hierarchies are obviously prone to corruption, especially where conservatism dominates rather true Liberalism (in the classic sense); narcissiism, the old boy network/old school tie etc are undeniably real issues and of course Racism does exist but they tend to operate in relatively smallsspheres of influence and arent institutional ,ma thats not to say that it shouldnt be acknowledged and dealt with, but those other, deeper factors are too often overlooked or denied, including hand wringing, white Politicians and SJDs

Its too easy/convenient to blame successful "white people" ( and attribute privelege to them generally when it's more often a case of individual people progressing, including some, but by no means all, of the white population (amongst other individuals from "other ethnic backgrounds") who achieved their level of success by benefitting from a  relatively more stable family life, living in a safer neighborhood, receiving a good education which they made good use of and by their own hard work; and the, if they are really good, the Pareto effect kicks in; the more competent and successful you are, the greater the number and quality of opportunities that are likely to come to you, regardless of your skin tone/ethnicity/culture

Government social programs tend to be very wasteful and offer one size fits all solutions that produce hit and miss or mixed results at  best Which is partly why Peterson places so much emphasis on individual improvement and attainment

Politicians love to throw money at problems but Big government has failed to provide good quality, relevant educational opportunities and real choice to those for whom education is their only realistic hope of socioeconomic advancement.

Big Government, big government departments and big government programs are monumentally wasteful and extract far too much compulsory tax from the tax payer; a poor, uneducated, employed person is disproportionately  penalised economically in comparison to an educated person with a good career; not only does he/she pays a higher proportion of his overall income in wage tax, he/she typically commences work several years earlier (rather than going to Uni), works many thousands of hours longer, usually in a more physically demanding job, and typically dies sooner after retirement than someone with a better education and better healthcare...they are therefore effectively subsidizing the pensions of the "middle class" and are less likely to pass on the kind of financial legacy to their children/grandchildren that could help elevate them out of poverty.

Having said all that, being mired in poverty trap is also down to individual choices, attitudes, habits and patterns of behaviour as well as other social and cultural factorsa; again, these aren't likely to come about as the result of "privelege" ...which carries the connotation of being unearned, undeserved or at the expense of another "section of society.




Apologies for rambling incoherently on and on...again.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 01:44:15 AM by Bisto »
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Bez

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2018, 23:22:03 PM »
Last week's programme was nearly as bad as the week before's.

Bring on Fiona Bruce
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Nïckslïkk2112

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2018, 23:28:26 PM »

Bring on Fiona Bruce
Please, no.


Can't stand the shekky-headed, patronising bint. She must have some serious dirt on the Beeb's top brass.
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DavidL

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2018, 00:31:44 AM »
Please, no.


Can't stand the shekky-headed, patronising bint. She must have some serious dirt on the Beeb's top brass.
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Matt2112

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2018, 16:59:44 PM »
Fiona Bruce would not be my choice.  If they must have a woman because she's a woman  ::)   then Jo Coburn is far better qualified, surely?  And definitely no-one at all from Newsnight, they're all dreadful nowadays.
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Bisto

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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2018, 17:14:54 PM »
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Re: Question Time / This Week #5
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2018, 21:24:31 PM »
And definitely no-one at all from Newsnight, they're all dreadful nowadays.
At least you'd not see Maitliss's nobbly knees....or half of Kirsty Wark's clothes