Election!

Started by Bez, April 18, 2017, 12:08:06 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

NeilP


Bisto

April 19, 2017, 13:15:37 pm #31 Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 15:37:20 pm by Bisto
This won't change anything. The Tories will still go ahead with the Election...in fact they obviously had wind of this and probably decided to call the snap election before the CPS brought the charges to bear, thus effectively ensuring that Labour and the other opposition parties will be too busy getting their Election campaigns into gear and committing their resources to that rather than initiate a co-ordinated public campaign in the Media calling the Torries bent and calling the legitimacy of the Election result into question with the view to mounting a legal challenge.


Faced with a choice between the lesser of two evils the non partisan/thinking Electorate will, by and large, hold their noses or sleep walk through the forthcoming election, resigned to the futility of engaging with what is already an assured and inevitable outcome, and, in Democratic terms, as close to a rigged result as you can get without actually changing the Boundaries or breaking the Law. 


The total ineptitude of the opposition to put the Government under any pressure in the Polls or hold them to account in Parliament is, one could argue, a betrayal of Democracy itself as well as the Electorate. The fact that the other political parties would do the same as the Tories (given the opportunity )doesn't serve Democracy (any better) imho.


There will be no public appetite for a lengthy and expensive legal challenge to overturn the previous Election result....and I wouldn't be surprised if there were no constitutional means or precedent upon which to even attempt it considering that another election will effectively make the last one irrelevant.
No good deed goes unpunished!

No amount of anxiety can change the future. No amount of regret can change the past.

Nïckslïkk2112

Quote from: Bisto on April 19, 2017, 13:15:37 pm
This won't change anything. The Tories will still go ahead with the Election...in fact they obviously had wind of this and probably decided to call the snap election before the CPS brought the charges to bear, thus effectively ensuring that Labour and the other opposition parties will be too busy getting their Election campaigns into gear and committing their resources to that rather than initiate a co-ordinated public campaign in the Media calling the Torries bent and calling the legitimacy of the Election result into question with the view to mounting a legal challenge.


I've mentioned this before, but the likelihood of the Conservatives being brought to book for this has been around for weeks, months even. Labour and the LibDims are fully aware of it, but they won't try and make political capital out of it because people in glass houses don't throw stones.

Legend in my own Mind


Nïckslïkk2112

Oh good, Six - at least - jobs Gideon is quitting.

Perhaps forcing him out is the reason for a snap election?
Legend in my own Mind


DavidL

Quote from: Bisto on April 19, 2017, 13:15:37 pm

Faced with a choice between the lesser of two evils the non partisan/thinking Electorate will, by and large, hold their noses or sleep walk through the forthcoming election, resigned to the futility of engaging with what is already an assured and inevitable outcome, and, in Democratic terms, as close to a rigged result as you can get without actually changing the Boundaries or breaking the Law. 

It sounds to me like democracy is really not for you then.

Bisto

April 19, 2017, 14:41:14 pm #35 Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 16:02:00 pm by Bisto
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on April 19, 2017, 13:41:18 pm
I've mentioned this before, but the likelihood of the Conservatives being brought to book for this has been around for weeks, months even. Labour and the LibDims are fully aware of it, but they won't try and make political capital out of it because people in glass houses don't throw stones.



No doubt in other times this would be a major consideration, if not now particularly, then hedging their bets for the likliehood of being caught with their own pants down at some point in the future.... what has the Labour Party got to lose right now though, perhaps not as much as would seem likely given their perilous state? This Election will be another defeat for the Party but a failure to mobilise the Tory vote of an increasingly apathetic Electorate may mean that May only has a slightly increased majority and that  Corbyn still survives....If anything its the selfish self interest of Corbyn and Momentum to hold onto their own political power for the sake of it that is ransoming Labour's future and preventing the party from taking a very necessary, long hard look at itself in the mirror and doing something definitive to become a relevent force in National Politics again.


Despite the obvious short to medium term damage it would inflict, If Corbyn isn't deposed within a few months of a Tory victory then perhaps it would be best if a breakaway party was formed to give moderate Socialists and floating voters a reason to reconnect with Labour...the Corbyn led Marxists that formed the other party would very soon become a political irrrlevance....the prospects of that happening are probably only very slight however....it would depend on too many career politicians nailing their colours to the mast and putting both their political careers and their financial futures on the line.....which seems highly unlikely.


There is is no such thing as a victimless Crime and I would never condone the use of violence, or threats of violence, kidnapping, blackmail etc. on an innocent victim but the older I get the more I come to admire the unashamed honesty of the unabashed, career criminal...who is prepared to take the risks involved and face the consequences if caught.......I have more respect for them, and their Lawless philosophy than those who hide behind a veneer of respectibility and use technical loopholes to cheat all of us of our common wealth and the Law to evade their own liability and responsibility.
No good deed goes unpunished!

No amount of anxiety can change the future. No amount of regret can change the past.

Bisto

Quote from: DavidL on April 19, 2017, 14:32:14 pm
It sounds to me like democracy is really not for you then.



Ha ha ........ oh come on, you can do better than that surely?!


Why not be honest and admit that we haven't got access to a REAL functioning Democracy?! .... its just an abstract ideal that the Establishment has conditioned its wage slaves to cherish and accept; a vote is a Sop to throw us every now and then in order to help placate us and keep us in a coma and hooked into the Matrix.....here ya go...heres a meaningless vote...now get back to your tedious, meaningless 9 - 5 job/marriage/2.4 kids/25 year mortgage/Consumer lifestyle/CC debt hamster wheel
No good deed goes unpunished!

No amount of anxiety can change the future. No amount of regret can change the past.

Bisto

Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on April 19, 2017, 13:42:33 pm
Oh good, Six - at least - jobs Gideon is quitting.

Perhaps forcing him out is the reason for a snap election?



No doubt (whatever he does) he will continue to devote himself to the time honoured family tradition of relieving the Exchequer of his UK Tax burdon
No good deed goes unpunished!

No amount of anxiety can change the future. No amount of regret can change the past.

Slim

Quote from: Bisto on April 19, 2017, 14:41:14 pmThis Election will be another defeat for the Party but a failure to mobilise the Tory vote of an increasingly apathetic Electorate may mean that May only has a slightly increased majority and that Corbyn still survives....


This is an interesting point. For me, one of the disadvantages of this early election is that it might remove Corbyn from power. But if she only increases her majority by a dozen or two seats then he could hang on, as you say.

If she comes back with a moderate landslide and Corbyn has to throw in the towel, very nice to have a comfortable majority for the next five years but what if the ensuing backlash and soul-searching in the Labour Party results in a moderate and capable leader who will be a thorn in our side in (now) only five years' time? We'd have had eight at least if she'd left well alone.

In the back of my mind I keep thinking: we've just had the first clear election win since 1992, and we've gone and cashed it in after only two years.

Slim

These are the 13 MPs who voted against the General Election motion today:

Nine Labour MPs:

1.       Ronnie Campbell
2.       Ann Clwyd
3.       Paul Farrelly
4.       Jim Fitzpatrick
5.       Clive Lewis
6.       Fiona Mactaggart
7.       Liz McInnes
8.       Dennis Skinner
9.       Graham Stringer

Three Independent MPs:

1.       Lady Sylvia Hermon
2.       Natalie McGarry (suspended SNP)
3.       Michelle Thomson (suspended SNP)

One SDLP MP:

1.       Dr Alasdair McDonnell



Fair enough, the Fixed Term Parliament act was after all intended to give MPs that choice.

Nïckslïkk2112

Ah, the good old Beast o'Bozer.

A politician without the taint of hypocrisy. What was that Den? Tha's gonna gi' up thi seat at 65 so as not to deprive a younger chap o' a days wok?
Legend in my own Mind


Matt2112

Quote from: Bisto on April 19, 2017, 15:18:40 pmWhy not be honest and admit that we haven't got access to a REAL functioning Democracy?! .... its just an abstract ideal that the Establishment has conditioned its wage slaves to cherish and accept; a vote is a Sop to throw us every now and then in order to help placate us and keep us in a coma and hooked into the Matrix.....here ya go...heres a meaningless vote...now get back to your tedious, meaningless 9 - 5 job/marriage/2.4 kids/25 year mortgage/Consumer lifestyle/CC debt hamster wheel



So if we did have, as you put it, a real, functioning democracy where every vote was meaningful, what would that look like?   Something not radically different from the scenarios you go on to list Renton-style, I'd say.
The keys to happiness

NeilP

April 19, 2017, 23:29:41 pm #42 Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 23:31:51 pm by NeilP
I'm beginning to think the PM has a cunning plan to dilute the hard brexiteers within the party with an increased majority and then look to negotiate a constructive exit beyond 2019... it would make sense if she has serious doubts about the actual cost of a hard brexit and if she feels haranged by IDS, Liam fox and Rees-Mogg?

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/6610-pound-to-euro-and-dollar-risk-sentiment


http://www.eastwoodadvertiser.co.uk/news/pro-remain-tory-mp-for-broxtowe-backs-snap-general-election-to-see-off-hard-brexiteers-1-8500496

Bisto

Quote from: Matt2112 on April 19, 2017, 17:58:54 pm

So if we did have, as you put it, a real, functioning democracy where every vote was meaningful, what would that look like?   Something not radically different from the scenarios you go on to list Renton-style, I'd say.



I don't know Matt I'm just having a rant.


Sorry, who, or what is "Renton"...?
No good deed goes unpunished!

No amount of anxiety can change the future. No amount of regret can change the past.

Thailand Express