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June 26, 2019, 03:50:40 am

Brexit watch

Started by Nick, October 20, 2016, 17:02:39 pm

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rufus the dawg

Quote from: DavidL on May 14, 2019, 20:57:10 pm

That a Remainer PM assisted by a Remainer civil service has made a complete hash of enacting the result of the referendum (intentionally?).



David Davies and Dominic Raaaaab were the brexit secretaries both leavers, so completely untrue

rufus the dawg


DavidL

Quote from: rufus the dawg on May 14, 2019, 21:41:58 pm

David Davies and Dominic Raaaaab were the brexit secretaries both leavers, so completely untrue
Both undermined by civil servants resulting in their resignations

DavidL

May 14, 2019, 22:54:58 pm #2988 Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 23:05:38 pm by DavidL
Quote from: rufus the dawg on May 14, 2019, 21:43:05 pm

proof please
Oliver Robbins


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/12/theresa-mays-die-hard-remainer-advisers-blamed-many-brexit/


When he was at university he ran a pro-federal Europe group called the Oxford Reform Group (source: The Guardian)

DavidL

Quote from: DavidL on May 14, 2019, 20:57:10 pm
I've heared this notion that the electorate would be better informed for a second referendum many times before.....always from Remainers.

You haven't explained why this sentence makes me a liar, rufus

rufus the dawg

Quote from: DavidL on May 14, 2019, 22:54:58 pm
Oliver Robbins


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/12/theresa-mays-die-hard-remainer-advisers-blamed-many-brexit/


When he was at university he ran a pro-federal Europe group called the Oxford Reform Group (source: The Guardian)



one person out of how many!

rufus the dawg

Quote from: DavidL on May 14, 2019, 23:11:18 pm
You haven't explained why this sentence makes me a liar, rufus



Just watch question time... people on their voted to leave and now they want a second referendum.


My neighbors,
My friends,
The farmers all around me I speak to.


All changed their minds.


The polls.... leave... should way ahead, leave are way behind, that says to me people have changed their minds.


They are everywhere.




DavidL

May 15, 2019, 00:20:46 am #2992 Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 00:30:56 am by DavidL
Quote from: rufus the dawg on May 14, 2019, 23:42:32 pm

Just watch question time... people on their voted to leave and now they want a second referendum.


My neighbors,
My friends,
The farmers all around me I speak to.


All changed their minds.


The polls.... leave... should way ahead, leave are way behind, that says to me people have changed their minds.


They are everywhere.
They're all Remainers, of course  ;) .
I realise that to reject any result that is not to their liking is the EU's way. Their plan was: make Brexit virtually impossible, get people so annoyed so that when they vote again they say "sod it! I can't take anymore". Job done. What's your plan if the result is the same, by the way? Rush out and buy a bag of lemons? Would solve nothing.  Let's see whether people still want to leave come next Thursday, shall we?
Truce 'til then - whadya say?

Bez

Politics

Derived from the Greek "Poly" for many and "Tic" being a bloody sucking parasite.... ;D
RC1.1 abd g/n 11/0/bcd/tG PeW/- ~600 x 0 61%

BasspedalMan

Quote from: DavidL on May 14, 2019, 20:57:10 pm


That a Remainer PM assisted by a Remainer civil service has made a complete hash of enacting the result of the referendum (intentionally?). Both parties ably assisted by duplicitous MPs who, having promised to honour the result, have done everything in their power to do the opposite. It may be more important to consider what we (still) do not know.

GOOD POINT!

1. Where we would be now, had the negotiations been conducted by persons who believed in the opportunities presented by leaving the EU, rather than a team that were happy to capitulate at the first time of asking to produce a 'treaty' that amounts to little more than a scuttle.


OUT AND BOOMING!

2. What is the intention of the EU towards its stated aims of a Federal Europe. What is the direction of travel and what will the EU look like in 5, 10, 20 years from now?


I DON'T LIKE THE LOOK OF IT. SOUTHERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE REALLY HURTING THANKS TO THE PARITY OF CURRENCIES AND, IN SOME CASES, THE UNREALISTIC RATES THE EURO WAS ADOPTED AT.


3. What is the EU's answer to the migration disaster continuing to affect member states?


THEY DON'T SEE IT AS A DISASTER. IT'S PART OF A WIDER PLAN. IF YOU IGNORE THE DISTORTED 'WHITE SUPREMACIST' TAKE ON 'THE KALERGI PLAN'. IT MAKES SENSE. WHILST THE DEVELOPED WORLD KEEPS RELYING ON CONSTANT GROWTH IT WILL NEED A CONSTANT INCREASE IN HUMAN RESOURCES

4. How will the single currency be made to work?


IT WON'T IN THE LONG RUN. IT'S DOOMED.

5. How will the EU combat the growing unrest and rise of nationalism among some member states?


BY SHOUTING THEM DOWN AND CALLING THEM OUT AS RACISTS UNTIL THE PEOPLE FROM THOSE COUNTRIES GET SICK ENOUGH TO HAVE THEIR OWN REFERENDUM.

6. Will Jean-Claude ever give up the grog?


ONLY WHEN HE ACTUALLY DOES MANAGE TO SET FIRE TO A VISITING DIGNITARY OR FALL DOWN SOME STEPS.


7. Will Guy Verhofstadt ever stop scaring children?


....AND ADULTS. HE COMES ACROSS AS QUITE PLAUSIBLE IN ONE TO ONE INTERVIEWS BUT HIS RANTS ON THE FLOOR OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT ARE LIKE A ONE MAN NUREMBURG RALLY SOMETIMES!


It's clear to me that the only place answers are to be found to those questions and many more that would assist in making 'the right' choice, is within a very effective (not Mark Carney's) crystal ball.


DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THAT PRICK!

In my opinion we really are not much better informed than we were in 2016 - to suggest otherwise is an attempt to con the public. The idea that Article 50 should be revoked is perhaps a promise that should be made by the PM before the 23rd May. I confidently predict it would secure even more votes for the Brexit party. I do though agree with your suggestion that Theresa May should resign.


YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT BUT IT WOULD BE BETTER THAN THE GRADUAL SLIPPERY SLOPE TOWARDS OUR PARLIAMENT ACTUALLY VOTING FOR THE SUBJUGATION OF OUR NATION. WE WOULD BE LITTLE MORE THAN A EUROPEAN COLONY IF MAY'S DEAL GOES THROUGH.

Ok, I'll join in...

1981 x 1
1983 x 4
1988 x 2
1992 x 2
1996 x 2
1997 x 5
2002 x 3
2004 x 7
2007 x 7
2011 x 3
2013 x 3

rufus the dawg

Quote from: BasspedalMan on May 16, 2019, 19:50:54 pm



YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT BUT IT WOULD BE BETTER THAN THE GRADUAL SLIPPERY SLOPE TOWARDS OUR PARLIAMENT ACTUALLY VOTING FOR THE SUBJUGATION OF OUR NATION. WE WOULD BE LITTLE MORE THAN A EUROPEAN COLONY IF MAY'S DEAL GOES THROUGH.




This is correct. When we actually completely leave we will still have to abide by EU regulations to sell in to the EU and WTO regulations otherwise. the Former we have a say in, the later no say.


And it is often said "we can sell to the rest of the world when we leave"...... we already do.  We trade and export to everyone? Germany are very good at selling to the rest of the world.


Farage is selling snake oil.




rufus the dawg

May 20, 2019, 11:43:54 am #2996 Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 11:47:14 am by rufus the dawg
It is often said Remainers should not patronise leavers because they do not understand all the in's and out's of the Brexit arguments, what WTO means, the Norway option and Canada Plus etc.

Therefore you must be able to understand the following far easier concepts:

1.  We live in a Parliamentary democracy and when Parliament voted on the referendum it was put to it as being Advisory. After it was passed Cameron said publicly it would be decisive, which he had no authority to. You must also be able to understand that had the referendum been put to Parliament as not  Advisory but a decisive vote of the people, Parliament would have legislated for it requiring a super majority to pass. Much like in UK Company Law super majorities are required for the passing of the more serious resolutions by its shareholders at AGMs and EGMs.
The vital thing to be remembered at all times is that before Parliament voted to pass the referendum bill into law the constitutional position was clearly stated in Briefing Paper 3rd June 2015:
Section 5. This Referendum is advisory only. It doesn't bind either Parliament or the Government to act on its outcome.
Section 6. If there were any suggestion whatsoever, that there would be a change such as leaving the EU would involve - a major constitutional change, a change in the rights of the citizens of the UK - then a supermajority would be required."
The MPs (and Peers) voted to pass the referendum Bill on the basis of this briefing paper.2. Part of the Leave argument was to "bring sovereignty home" to our Parliament, and yet arch Leavers are not letting that happen. Instead they are calling it a betrayal that MPs are behaving in accordance with their duties under a Parliamentary democracy.
3. Leavers are expecting a pressure group (UKIP) to deliver a referendum result which, as a pressure group with no MPs, they are unable to deliver, obviously.
4. Our MPs are tying themselves in knots because during the campaign Cameron said it would be decisive, and Johnson et al made statements that were simply untrue. None of them had the authority to make such statements. They let us down badly. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs must do what they think is best for their constituents, and many are trying to balance their view that Leaving would not be in their constituents' best interests, versus listening to constituents who want to Leave whatever the consequences.
5. Once again Farage is leading a party with no MPs, so is promising stuff he therefore cannot deliver. He is pushing what he now calls a WTO Brexit; a Hard Brexit/No Deal Brexit in other words. By the way he has changed his mind from 2016 when he held up Norway and Switzerland as countries to follow. He is not a man with a consistent approach which is worrying since it is over something that has been his life's work, the cornerstone of all he is. Worrying but also hypocritical, in that he can change his mind but will not allow the public to in a confirmatory referendum.
6. If we leave on WTO, we will have to pay our debts to the EU (39bn), and have no trade deal, yet every single business in the UK that sells into the EU will have supply contracts that require them to make/deliver "widgets" that comply with EU regulations. Whole schedules in those contracts will be devoted to the quality standards EU regulations require, and which UK businesses will have to comply with. Failure to comply will result in litigation which will be carried out in accordance with the Jurisdiction clause in those contracts. The Jurisdiction clause sets out the laws of the country applicable to the contract, and the jurisdiction of the court to handle any dispute. Usually the party with the greatest weight/commercial power wins that point. So e.g a contract between BMW and a franchisee in the UK will have EU laws and Jurisdiction in; the former being far more powerful commercially than the latter. This happens with all international contracts.
7. Because the EU is our biggest trading partner we will have to negotiate a trade deal with them; WTO standards will not meet the EU's requirements. And after that trade deal is signed we will have no say/influence in what the EU decides over future regulations. This puts us in a worse position than we are now; trading with our biggest trading partner which will be telling us how to trade with them. The majority of MPs see this and think it is a ridiculous position to get the country into, so are exercising their duties as MPs to vote against it.
8. This is just the Withdrawal Agreement. How bad is the Trade Deal going to look like?
9. Leave campaigned on a slogan to "bring sovereignty home", but in our country that is a Parliamentary democracy with a FPTP system. In 1951 and 1974, the party with the most votes were on the losing side; they had less seats and were unable to form a government. You cannot now complain when our sovereign Parliament makes decisions you do not like! You can however, campaign for PR and the abolition of the House of Lords for a better representative democracy.

BasspedalMan

Great Post Rufus....
Ok, I'll join in...

1981 x 1
1983 x 4
1988 x 2
1992 x 2
1996 x 2
1997 x 5
2002 x 3
2004 x 7
2007 x 7
2011 x 3
2013 x 3

Nïckslïkk2112

May 20, 2019, 15:23:01 pm #2998 Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 15:27:27 pm by Nïckslïkk2112
Disingenuous shit post Rufus :)

1. In that case the referendum taking us into the then EEC was only advisory and so could have been ignored. All referndums involving the whole UK are advisory only. The government then decides whether to heed that advice.

2. If Call me Dave couldn't say the referndum would be binding, then there is no Parlamentay sovereignty at all.
Parliamentary Sovereignty means that only Parliament can make or rescind the laws of the land - something we don't have in that we cannot unilaterally unmake EU laws whilst being a member.

3.Of course a pressure group cannot deliver the result in Parliament. That is why they are putting pressure on Westminster to deliver the people's vote on their behalf.The suffragettes were a pressure group and look what they achieved! Unfortunately...

4. When have our Westminster representatives EVER acted in the interests of their constituents? How often do they ever deliver the Manifesto they were elected on?

5. Why is changing your mind hypocrisy? Remainers keep on bleating that lots of Brexiteers will have changed their minds by now. Are they all hypocrites?

6. I have no idea at all as to whether if we left under WTO rules that we would be obliged to stump up the 39 billion. I have yet to see the back of the fag packet where the 39 billion was calculated.
And of course we will have to comply with EU standards to sell to them. Every other country in the world which sells to the EU will have to meet those standards too. We can set our own standards that others will have to comply with. We can stop the export of live animals. The world is our Lobster.

7. Of course we will have to sign a trade deal with the EU and we will be able to tell them how to trade with us. We used to have stricter cycle helmet safety standards than what the EU sanctioned IIRC. Swings and Roundabouts.

8. Who can say.

9. What's all that got to do with the price of fish?

And now, a Brucie Bonus:

10. In our Parliamentary system, we can vote for parties who promise to do certain things for us - OK they never do, but we can swap one set of liars for another - In the EU what can WE the people change? The people we vote in as MEPs will probably only alter the amount of time the European Parliament spends before rubber stamping the edicts from above. Is that any way to run an incipient Superstate?
Legend in my own Mind


zoony

Great post Simmers...