Author Topic: Brexit watch  (Read 61397 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

DavidL

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3271
  • Music by Lee and Lifeson, Lyrics by Peart
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2550 on: January 08, 2019, 10:58:04 AM »

döm

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13690
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2551 on: January 08, 2019, 11:40:43 AM »
Funny how many have been gleefully celebrating the demise of the Euro for most of its lifetime, yet it still stands despite a major recession and the fact that certain countries (Greece in particular) should never have been allowed to join in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 13:20:57 PM by döm »
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

DavidL

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3271
  • Music by Lee and Lifeson, Lyrics by Peart
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2552 on: January 08, 2019, 12:44:50 PM »
Funny how many have been gleefully celebrating the demise of the Euro for most of its lifetime, yet it still stands despite a major and the fact that certain countries (Greece in particular) should never have been allowed to join in the first place.
No demise in the euro (can't be allowed), just the demise of a couple of nation states that embraced it.

The Letter R

  • TNMS Management
  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8686
  • If you want something done right...just forget it.
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2553 on: January 08, 2019, 13:17:59 PM »
Talking of 'Brexiteer press'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/01/06/brexit-warnings-echo-nonsense-uttered-euro-20-years-ago/


I am sure it is a fascinating well balanced article but unfortunately I need a login to read it all - and I don't intend subscribing or paying the Barclay twins any money to read it in full....
I don't agree with the Euro and never will but it is an excellent example of how Britain used its veto powers to not join up to it - something bRexiteers often forget when telling us we have to agree with everything Brussels tells us........although following our exit we probably will have to do everything they tell us  ::)

döm

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13690
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2554 on: January 08, 2019, 19:31:27 PM »
Good to see common sense prevailing and Parliament taking back control. Well done Yvette and Nicky !
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

DavidL

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3271
  • Music by Lee and Lifeson, Lyrics by Peart
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2555 on: January 09, 2019, 00:11:22 AM »
Good to see common sense prevailing and Parliament taking back control. Well done Yvette and Nicky !
Fantasy threesome?  ;D ;)

Nick

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3497
  • You lookin' at me?
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2556 on: January 10, 2019, 20:03:42 PM »
Have we hit a wall now? 78 days to go.... i think everyone has lost the plot.. nasty abuse from both sides, Parliament fighting government, opposition party as confused as government, nobody backing the "deal", country still apparently split 50/50, contracts being given without tender process or proper due diligence.

Christ what have they done.
Everybody's got to evalate from the norm.

rufus the dawg

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
  • i stihl love rush?
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2557 on: January 10, 2019, 20:40:30 PM »
Have we hit a wall now? 78 days to go.... i think everyone has lost the plot.. nasty abuse from both sides, Parliament fighting government, opposition party as confused as government, nobody backing the "deal", country still apparently split 50/50, contracts being given without tender process or proper due diligence.

Christ what have they done.


Yes, and a referendum full of lies, foreign intervention, foreign money, broken rules, data harvesting and unfulfillable duplicitous policies from leave.


What have the conservatives and their 40 years of infighting done. The ERG and Ukip still have not come up with any clear policies.

Nïckslïkk2112

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28315
  • Dull by day, asleep at night.
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2558 on: January 10, 2019, 21:58:28 PM »

Yes, and a referendum full of lies, foreign intervention, foreign money, broken rules, data harvesting and unfulfillable duplicitous policies from leave.
Meaning?
And the remain camp  were whiter than white? (Of course they weren't, only the Brexiiteers where whites only - according to remainer crybabies)


Quote
What have the conservatives and their 40 years of infighting done. The ERG and Ukip still have not come up with any clear policies.
What has it got to do with any of them?
Show me how the Labour Party is free of infighting.
Show me why UKIP and the ERG should have any say on Brexit policies.
Don't forget both major Parties have in the past promised a Referendum on EU membership - and so have the LibDims. At least Cameron had the cojones to go through with it.

The people were asked, the people responded. Personally I wouldn't trust ANY of our politicians as far as I could throw them, and as a cyclist I have very weak arms. We were offered a choice, we took it. I've said it before, I have nothing against a European trading area, but any trade area that requires signing up to some sort of nebulous ever closer union isn't a FREE trading area. At least our economy is still growing and we're not sinking into recession like Germany.

Remember, we should never be in the EU anyway as the 1975 referendum was only advisory.

I can't wait to be a third rate country like Canada, they're doomed, they must be as they don't seem to be in any hurry to pool sovereignty with the Yew Ess Ay. Heck, they still celebrate Victoria day. Hoorah for the Dominions and Empire!
Legend in my own Mind


DavidL

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3271
  • Music by Lee and Lifeson, Lyrics by Peart
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2559 on: January 11, 2019, 00:46:35 AM »
Labour still all over the place on Brexit. It's blatantly obvious that the leader is out of step with many of the party members who want to reverse the referendum result. Corbyn knows (as he always has) that membership restricts his ability to implement his vision for the UK. Contradictory messages abound from Labour MPs.

DavidL

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3271
  • Music by Lee and Lifeson, Lyrics by Peart
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2560 on: January 11, 2019, 00:50:11 AM »
It's Cameron and Obama all over again! May has obviously leant on Japanese PM, Abe, to try to help her deal over the line. Shameful that a Japanese PM should try to influence UK Parliamentarians.

Bez

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32488
  • Yes, I DO look like my bloody avatar...
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2561 on: January 11, 2019, 07:59:33 AM »
Labour still all over the place on Brexit. It's blatantly obvious that the leader is out of step with many of the party members who want to reverse the referendum result. Corbyn knows (as he always has) that membership restricts his ability to implement his vision for the UK. Contradictory messages abound from Labour MPs.

Labour have been in a "right old muddle" since the referendum was called. As has been said on these pages many times, any half decent opposition would have wiped the floor with the government long ago and not waited for the self destruction that is being so painfully drawn out.

It's like watching puppies die in a bin bag, in a river  :-\

British politics is going to take an awful long time to recover its' credibility
RC1.1 abd g/n 11/0/bcd/tG PeW/- ~600 x 0 61%

Bez

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32488
  • Yes, I DO look like my bloody avatar...
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2562 on: January 11, 2019, 08:00:49 AM »
Shameful that a Japanese PM should try to influence UK Parliamentarians.

I don't have a problem with a world leader expressing an opinion. We do it often enough, sometimes forcibly....
RC1.1 abd g/n 11/0/bcd/tG PeW/- ~600 x 0 61%

döm

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13690
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2563 on: January 11, 2019, 13:27:39 PM »
It's Cameron and Obama all over again! May has obviously leant on Japanese PM, Abe, to try to help her deal over the line. Shameful that a Japanese PM should try to influence UK Parliamentarians.


I'm sure there are plenty of pro-brexit World leaders out there who could speak in favour if prompted. I can think of 2 already. Trump and Putin!
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

rufus the dawg

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
  • i stihl love rush?
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2564 on: January 13, 2019, 17:25:32 PM »
The next few days are going to be really interesting.
 
The Conservatives are playing a very dangerous game of chicken with the UK citizens and Parliament. It is a disgrace. Article 50 can be revoked at any time, so it’s a false game of chicken.
 
It seems to me that the EU is being blamed for austerity policies of the UK government and UK government are blaming the EU for its own policies instead of looking inward at itself.
 
The EU is one of the longest peace processes the world had ever seen, which has then morphed into a family of friends that work and collaborate together for the common goals of peace and prosperity. It is where 57% of our trade is with, and from where we have environmental protection, citizen rights, consumer rights, health research and national security. Being at the table whilst these debates are had is very important and we can help direct and influence them.
 
The EU is our closest neighbour so to work closely with it and have a debating chamber where we we can all work through problems and forge a genuine future together, should be our gaol. There are so many are positives that the EU has done for UK citizens, but the EU is much more than that. It is about future friendships, peace, common goals, collaboration for common goals whilst keeping each country’s distinct identity. When we work together we become a collective that has massive bargaining power around the world.
 
We will lose all the above if we leave, I think it is best that we are part of the decision making and not be on the side lines, and here are my answers to the various statements/factions amongst those wanting to leave:
 
1. To all the people wanting a No Deal: This situation will bring about needless havoc to this country, and in the end we will have to have a deal with the EU because our businesses will continue to trade with the EU. Just like we will have to create new deals with other trading countries/blocks on WTO; if they accept us. So No Deal will never happen. This is project fear by the Conservative government. To follow “No Deal” logic are we then going to have “No Deal” with the rest of the world? Quite clearly we are going to have to make deals with the rest of the world and maybe join the NAFTA which will mean accepting their laws and their arbitration, which will be rather like the ECJ.
 
2. To the “take back control” scenario: The situation is much like when we buy petrol and electricity/gas/oil our for homes and cars. Yes, we buy them from UK based companies but the price for these is set by world markets. The UK has zero control over those prices and so has zero control on prices on the forecourts or from energy suppliers. The biggest problem is that these companies are very happy to pass on the price rises but never pass on the price drops in energy.  The UK will not have any control over certain laws and tariffs. Look at the USA right now where Trump has closed down government because he has not get his way on his wall; and we want to get a meaningful trade deal out of him! Disgraced minister Fox is going to fail.
 
3. To those talking of having control of our laws: When we sign all those trade deals those countries’ laws will affect our laws. WTO have arbitration just like the EU have (ECJ).  I do not know one person who can say which law they do not like from the EU anyway. If you join a club you abide by their rules. If you want to change the club’s rules you have to join the committee. We are leaving the club and so we will not be able to change the club’s rules. If we want to enjoy the club’s benefits as a day member, we will have to pay extra for it and abide by its rules, and not have any say in the way the club is run.
 
4. To those who want control of our borders: Non EU migration is higher than EU migration. It as been like that for many years. We could have cut migration from EU countries but decided not to. This, whilst Teresa May was Home Secretary, and as PM she really is duplicitous.
 
5. To those wanting to control of our money: We control the money we send to the EU by parliament voting to send it. It’s been proved that we lose £500 million a week due to the referendum.
 
6. Corbyn’s general election idea is misguided. GE's are based on a full manifestos. This is a one issue subject brought about by infighting within the Conservative party. Corbyn is so desperate to get into power he is not thinking straight. He should back a third referendum and then when a general election comes he can just say this is what a Conservative party is - corrupt, ineffectual, mean minded, with ill thought through policies. Corbyn might lose the GE he so desperately wants. Then what? Back to square one.
 
It should be walk in the park for him. He should reflect on why he is not doing better in the polls considering how bad this Tory partry is with it’s combination of lying, weak, mean ministers. Where is his lead in all this mess?
 
7. To those who say that having a third referendum is going against the “will of the people”: Teresa May’s deal was not on the table in June 2016, so what actual Brexit did people vote for? We were told lies in favour of leaving the EU, put forward in simplistic messages, because they wanted to hood wink the public into voting for them. For years politicians of all colours have been blaming the EU for their own short comings. And for year years a very small faction of the Tory party have been using sophistry and mythomania to get anti EU messages across. So to say there is a will of the people it is a complete lie. Gobbel’s could not have done it better. There is a new poll showing that most people think having a new referendum on Teresa May’s deal would constitute a new referendum and not going over old ground because clearly Leave did/does not have any clear alternative plan that they all agree on.
 
8. Leavers say Remain lied, but most of the Remain predictions came true and many more not predicted have come to pass. Businesses are stock piling food and medicines, it is so bad. But mostly it is #whataboutery. Leave campaigners do not seem to understand that democracy is not about winning, it is about putting forward clear implementable policies and putting them to a vote. Vote Leave put forward bogus policies which in most cases were clear lies that could not be implemented. Democracy cannot be based on lying to win, data harvesting, foreign intervention, breaking spending rules. So if you follow Leave’s argument that Remain lied too, then that simply doubles the reason to have another the referendum.
 
9. To those who were persuaded by “bring back Sovereignty: What sovereignty have we lost? Can you put a finger on it? The UK parliament gave power to the EU parliament so we can have a say on all EU laws (some of which we can veto), meaning we now have a sort of sovereignty over all of the EU nations. In doing this we send MEPs to the EU parliament, and a minister to the Council of Ministers who make the policies. Because we have joined the EU it makes trading with our nearest neighbours much easier because we have frictionless trade with the EU. The “many Eurocrats” are actually just the equivalent of our civil service; who as we all know we do not vote for. Further the EU is run by a vastly fewer number than our civil service comprises.
 
10. To those wanting to trade with the rest of the world: We already trade with the rest of the world. Can you name a country we do not trade with? Germany does twice as much trade with China than the UK does.
 
Opinion is not fact. The media have played a massive part in promoting Brexit, Why was Nigel Farage on TV every day? I did not see the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire on TV every day, even though he’s had anti EU views since 1976 Can you name him with out looking him up? Farage was not even an MP; he just led a pressure group with massive funding. He was part of the establishment coming from a banking background, backed by bankers who want the UK to become a tax haven for their own interests.
 
When anti EU people are interviewed on TV/radio the interviewer rarely holds them to account. Too often it seems they do now know the facts so viewers are left with an impression that lies told are the truth. Five minutes with someone with knowledge would show them up for what they are; charlatans selling snake oil.
 
“The art of diplomacy is persuading other people to do your will”, so we need to bring the country back together. The media and MPs must stop being rude and start to listen to each other. The hopefully behaviour amongst us citizens will improve. 
 
Teresa May ignored calls for a cross party collaborative version of Brexit. Instead she cobbled together a deal and now at this eleventh hour she is desperate and wants to Labour to come on board. I have seen this all before when the Lib Dems put the Conservatives in power for the national interest. The Conservatives got their media friends to paint the Lib Dems as the lying double dealing party. They at the same time said the Labour party created all the debt because of over spending, totally ignoring the fact that Labour borrowing was pretty normal for a government until the financial crisis that was created in the USA. So the Tories are totally untrustworthy so Parliament must take control of the situation.
 
Teresa May has never looked at the result and how close it was. Nor does she seem bothered about how the Leave campaign broke rules, lied, manipulated face book data (data harvesting), over spent, or potentially had Russian money backing and Russian data intervention. This is nothing short of appalling in a democratic country. I cannot understand why the 2016 referendum has not been ditched over it. This government is condoning corruption.
 
To bring the country together there really should have been a much more nuanced approach to Brexit. The combative style of the Conservative party has led to a county that is divided and bitter. Teresa May has not got the vision, charisma or intelligence to do it. We need a new style of politics.
 
Two and half years after the 2016 referendum what do we have? Tons of discussion about Brexit, but no real clarity or substance from any politician. The facts have brushed under the carpet by Leavers. Teresa May is playing chicken with the Houses of Parliament over her deal even though she can get an extension/revoke article 50 in order to bring Parliament together, listen and take note properly.
 
Leavers still do not have a clear vision or plan and they have not come up with any good reasons to leave EU. Zero reasons, zero plan. Listen to a Leaver and ask is that really true? And is that the EU’s fault? Are they just speaking a simplistic dogma, that two minutes research on the Internet can show to have no basis in fact?
 
We know Putin would like us to leave the EU. His country opened thousands of anti Facebook pages sending out anti EU news. Arron Banks is being investigated in connection with Russian money.
 
Meanwhile, we are left having a game of chicken for “reasons” that have been proven to be complete and utter lies.
 
So we do need a third referendum to clarify this really is what the voters wants. A carpenter measures twice and cuts once.