Author Topic: Brexit watch  (Read 45227 times)

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Slim

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2340 on: December 05, 2018, 10:47:57 AM »
I hate admitting when I have done something daft, even to my wife who I know always has my back!
Come on then, rufus - you can do it.

I have no problem personally admitting I was lied to.


Fortunately I didn't believe them, and apparently neither did the majority of voters.

Slim

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2341 on: December 05, 2018, 10:57:46 AM »
Never known a Government look so weak and inept whilst the opposition appears to not care and be so incompetent to gain the upper hand.
May is a Remainer forced to play the Leave card whilst Corbyn is a Leaver forced to pretend he is a little bit remain whilst removing a splinter from his arse.
It's a shame when we need a strong Government and Parliament we are at the point in History when we have the 2 weakest Parties in-fighting and fighting each other.
If we put on a united front in our negotiations with Europe things could be a lot different......anyones guess where it goes from here........
That ineptness and weakness you refer to is an inevitable function of the dynamics of Brexit being independent from party allegiance. So you can be virulently opposed to the EU and lifelong Labour, like Dennis Skinner - or content to remain obediently on your knees, licking the feet of the EU commissars for a lifetime and yet emphatically Conservative - like Dominic Grieve.
I have to point out also that the apparent ineptness of the government position is due in no small part to opposition parties - as well as traitors within our own ranks like Anna Soubry - actively undermining it.
Anyway - despite the chaos I'm quite hopeful, at the moment.  May's surrender cannot succeed. We will, by law, exit the EU on March 29th 2019. That last fact can only change by an act of parliament, and I doubt there's a majority there for any other course of action, and certainly not a Loser's Vote.

rufus the dawg

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2342 on: December 05, 2018, 14:33:51 PM »

Sorry I have taken so long over this reply Slim I have been hyper busy.

Please don't worry - I might have been concerned if you hadn't been hopelessly wide of the mark as usual, but as things stand - you're good.
Daniel Hannan was indeed entirely wrong about the single market. But he was not an official spokesperson for the government or the Leave campaign. Nor was he lying, I suspect. Still less at "every opportunity". Actually the one thing we can say with some degree of certainty other than that we voted to leave the EU, is that we voted to leave the single market - because we were given assurances by politicians on both sides of the argument, including the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, that this would be the case.

Daniel Hannan is a founding member of Vote Leave and was on Vote Leave’s board during the referendum. He was lying.
 
Farage said "Wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self governing.”
Also he said “We wouldn't want to be like the Swiss, would we? That would be awful! We'd be rich!”
 
Norway and Switzerland are part of the single market.
 
So did we vote to leave the single market? You might have, but your neighbour might have voted to stay in the single market and your other neighbour might have voted for a Norway or Switzerland type deal.
 
Because Vote Leave do not have a plan this is what you get, a massive mess created by the Conservative party and people agreeing with each other on Conservative Home with out any ideas.

The remark about the housing crisis is self-evidently not a lie; it's common sense. Just because you can't think of a way that not sending massive quantities of cash to Brussels every year might help with the housing crisis doesn't mean that others can't. And you know what? If you think about it really hard - really, really hard? You might be able to think of one yourself!
 

This is just does not make sense, but I will try respond to what I think you mean. Government do not build houses in this country, private companies do. It was a lie.
 
To help with the housing crisis we need to change UK planning laws and it is absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Deregulation of Mortgages by Thatcher and selling off the country’s council housing stock also created a lot of these problems but that is another topic.
 
 

Christ and he's using the key debate of the defining issue of our time as a general purpose stopped record soap box for poverty / local council funding etc etc.


You just said above we can spend the £350 million we send to the EU on domestic issues. You must be really confused. This is what Corbyn is saying. 440 homeless people died in the UK last year, we should be debating that instead of Brexit which is complete waste of time and money. Sorting homelessness out and the reasons are much more important than this Conservative civil war which we have had to endure for the last 3 years. and counting.
 
 
Nobody promised the NHS £350 million a week,

This is two lies,
1. The UK do not send £350 million a week to the EU is more like £9.4 billion which equate to £180 million a week
2. Maybe so, but people took it to mean that; and Vote Leave did not second guess this notion so colluded in the lie.
 
 
any more than I promised you the Commons would have a vote on the May deal last week - as I hope the most recent image I posted has helped you to understand.

The bus should have said “ The UK government democratically decided to send 1.5% of our annual budget to the EU, we can maybe spend on something else” But it did not.
NHS was used to tug heart strings. Now it is not going to be spent on the NHS. It is going to be spent on unelected bureaucrats. etc etc etc etc etc
 
Perhaps I'm being optimistic there. Bear in mind that Boris Johnson was a backbench MP at the time those pics with the bus were taken. If backbench MPs had the power to effect government policy like that,

Boris Johnson was a Telegraph columnist and had a massive media presence. He had been Mayor of one of the most powerful cities in the world and his media profile was at an all time high. In contrast Caroline Lucus was hardly ever in the media.
 
So go and compare.
 
 
Jeremy Corbyn would have given Northern Ireland to the Republic in the '80s.
This is what May’s deal with the DUP is doing.
 
BTW did not Jeremy Corbyn help bring the sides together and help start the talks so stopping the killing? Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness became best of friends.
 
It is so funny how people at “Conservative Home and the “Telegraph” hate Corbyn so much, I think they must be worried. But hey let’s not forget that Thatcher liked a good chin wag with mass murdering dictators like Pinochet. And were supposedly good friends.
 
Gerry Adams or General Pinotchet.
 
 
 
The claim that £350 million a week was promised to the NHS is itself a laughable, ridiculous lie, albeit one that many have been suckered by, apparently including contributors to this thread. But it does have the value of showing how dishonest the Remain campaign has continued to be, long after the people rejected its nonsense in a referendum.
 

Yes 52% of the public were suckered by it you are right. Because Vote Leave lied. This is what was believed by the public. This has nothing to do with remain. Passing the buck is not applicable here Slim. Remain did not put the lie on the bus. Your besty Farage who you said should be knighted said it was a mistake by Vote Leave.

We voted to Leave the EU. And yes, OK, it's fair to say that the people voted to leave the Single Market. Other than that though,

Yes you are correct we voted to leave. one of the founding member of vote leave and Farage said we were not going to leave the single market. So who’s lying?
 
we didn't vote for a deal.

Yes you did vote for a deal
 
to quote leading brexiteer disgraced minister Liam Fox
 
Liam Fox has said a post-Brexit free trade deal with the EU should be the “easiest in human history”, but insisted that the UK could survive without one.
 
We've never had a referendum to determine our trading arrangements with China, the US, Japan, the EU itself or any other entity, and we don't need one now.

We live in a parliamentary democracy so UK does not need them. So why did you want a referendum on leaving the EU?! But when China and the USA start telling us what to do and the WTO arbitration board start meddling in UK politics then what, because that is what will happen. We will be leaving one Market, Trading Block and having to join other trading Blocks without the leverage of the 600 million people behind us ie the EU single market. Quite obviously you don’t have any answers.

You say Jeremy Corbyn would be bad for the country, I think I will believe Mark Carney though and what he says about No Deal.

Let me summerise for you.

Slim voted for no Deal
Farage campaigned for Norway or Swizerland.   Schengen Area
Hannan campaigned to stay in the single market. Schengen Area

Farage and Hannan campaigned for a deal with the EU.
 
 
 


döm

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2344 on: December 06, 2018, 14:20:04 PM »
Come on then, rufus - you can do it.

I have no problem personally admitting I was lied to.


Fortunately I didn't believe them, and apparently neither did the majority of voters.


Partly due to the amount of BS spouted on the leave side not including the 350 million per week that was actually written on the side of a bus-
-Turkey joining. 
- The EU always voting against UK issues
- The deal being "the easiest in history"
- Going over the heads of the EU and straight to the leaders of the 27
- German car manufacturers, French wine makers insisting on a deal
- That rest of the World would come running with trade deals
- That we would get our sovereignty back







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Nick

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2345 on: December 06, 2018, 15:43:59 PM »
I think the country is in paralysis, too dangerous to risk no deal, too pointless to accept Mays plan, too worrying to risk a new ref. How is this ever going to end?

Everybody's got to evalate from the norm.

DavidL

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2346 on: December 06, 2018, 18:30:45 PM »
I think the country is in paralysis, too dangerous to risk no deal, too pointless to accept Mays plan, too worrying to risk a new ref. How is this ever going to end?
It's pretty flippin' exciting...isn't it?

Slim

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2347 on: December 06, 2018, 20:01:28 PM »
I think the country is in paralysis, too dangerous to risk no deal, too pointless to accept Mays plan, too worrying to risk a new ref. How is this ever going to end?
The alleged dangers of a WTO rules, clean Brexit have been exaggerated greatly, as David Davis explained very eloquently and authoritatively today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKtF_q5M5H0

Some of our contributors would do well to listen and learn.

But to answer your question, we leave the EU on March 29th. Personally I hope for a clean, orderly no deal Brexit. But I suspect the reality of no deal will concentrate minds on the other side of the channel, and despite the intransigence they've expressed in recent days - they'll compromise quite a bit.


I think people forget what the EU stands to lose in this. It's not just the £39 billion of our money that they want to get their hands on.



rufus the dawg

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2348 on: December 06, 2018, 21:49:11 PM »

The alleged dangers of a WTO rules, clean Brexit have been exaggerated greatly, as David Davis explained very eloquently and authoritatively today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKtF_q5M5H0

Some of our contributors would do well to listen and learn.

But to answer your question, we leave the EU on March 29th. Personally I hope for a clean, orderly no deal Brexit. But I suspect the reality of no deal will concentrate minds on the other side of the channel, and despite the intransigence they've expressed in recent days - they'll compromise quite a bit.


I think people forget what the EU stands to lose in this. It's not just the £39 billion of our money that they want to get their hands on.



read and learn.


http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean.pdf


David Davies, He was negotiating this deal but did not bother turning up, I read somewhere he only spent 4 hours negotiating with Michel Barnier. What plonker.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 22:21:48 PM by rufus the dawg »

döm

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2349 on: December 06, 2018, 22:03:59 PM »
The alleged dangers of a WTO rules, clean Brexit have been exaggerated greatly, as David Davis explained very eloquently and authoritatively today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKtF_q5M5H0

Some of our contributors would do well to listen and learn.

But to answer your question, we leave the EU on March 29th. Personally I hope for a clean, orderly no deal Brexit. But I suspect the reality of no deal will concentrate minds on the other side of the channel, and despite the intransigence they've expressed in recent days - they'll compromise quite a bit.


I think people forget what the EU stands to lose in this. It's not just the £39 billion of our money that they want to get their hands on.


A clean orderly no deal Brexit ain't going to happen no matter how many times you state it. All our trade deals around the World are tied in with membership of the EU so without a deal they will cease on 29th March.


A no deal brexit will be a disorderly mess and I hope with all my heart that it doesn't happen
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rufus the dawg

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2350 on: December 06, 2018, 22:17:22 PM »
Come on then, rufus - you can do it.

I have no problem personally admitting I was lied to.


Fortunately I didn't believe them, and apparently neither did the majority of voters.


But you believed the leave lies. Are you slightly biased?



Yes I know both sides were lying/exaggerating, but you do not understand the point.


You are missing from the bus.


Russian money.
Broken election Rules.
Data Harvesting.
Over spending.
77 million Turks coming to the UK


 https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/661387/Migrant-crisis-Nigel-Farage-Turkey-EU-visa-free-travel


That racist UKIP poster.


https://www.referendumanalysis.eu/eu-referendum-analysis-2016/section-5-campaign-and-political-communication/break-point-for-brexit-how-ukips-image-of-hate-set-race-discourse-reeling-back-decades/


You do not get it. Biased?


Both sides lied and one side really broke the rules. In a democracy this referendum should be made invalid. You can not have a democracy based on lies, broken rules, empty promises. Democracy is bigger than both remain or leave and this referendum.


The more we both agree both sides lied the more the referendum should be cancelled. I know you are a democrat because I remember we agreed with each other many years ago on how to make this country more democratic.



DavidL

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2351 on: December 06, 2018, 23:51:17 PM »


David Davies, He was negotiating this deal but did not bother turning up, I read somewhere he only spent 4 hours negotiating with Michel Barnier. What plonker.

He wasn't negotiating the deal, No.10 was (by their own admission). Both Davies and Raab had their hands tied.

döm

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2352 on: December 07, 2018, 00:29:15 AM »
He wasn't negotiating the deal, No.10 was (by their own admission). Both Davies and Raab had their hands tied.
Just as well

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DavidL

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2353 on: December 07, 2018, 00:32:41 AM »
Just as well
Yes, it would be ridiculous to let anyone other than someone that wants to remain in the EU to negotiate our leaving.Therein lies the rub.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 00:35:06 AM by DavidL »

The Letter R

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Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #2354 on: December 07, 2018, 08:59:28 AM »
He wasn't negotiating the deal, No.10 was (by their own admission). Both Davies and Raab had their hands tied.


Just as well Raab had his hands tied - the best he could muster was a wide eyed Kindergarden geography lesson to us all about how he just discovered Calais and Dover were so close on the map - the guy was so out of his depth it was embarrassing. Still, I seem to remember the Leave campaign telling us not to listen to experts so maybe he was just the man for the job.... ;)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 09:01:07 AM by The Letter R »