Brexit watch

Started by Nick, October 20, 2016, 18:02:39 pm

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Nïckslïkk2112

You don't have to be in the EU to be European. Ask the Norwegians.
On second thoughts, don't ask the Norwegians, they're mental as feck...
Legend in my own Mind


DavidL

Suspended until further notice.

The Letter R

Suspended until we have a Government to negotiate.......

döm

So the DUP want a comprehensive free trade and Customs deal with the EU.

There maybe trouble ahead...




You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

NeilP

are the negotiations still starting in 11 days?

The Letter R

Quote from: döm on June 09, 2017, 10:02:06 am
So the DUP want a comprehensive free trade and Customs deal with the EU.

There maybe trouble ahead...




That's quite a good deal really and would save us a lot of headaches setting new customs tariffs. Just so long as there aren't too many extra strings attached. Guess that would also include free movement of people which again I have no issue with. The UK will after all be less attractive to EU workers with a weakened pound.

Slim

I do have a strong issue with the free movement of people, in that it undoubtedly goes against the spirit of the referendum result.

Apparently the government Chief Whip is off to negotiate a "formal coalition" with the DUP. I hope that quite soon we will find out what that entails. I see a need for pragmatism and moderation on both sides.

The Letter R

The free movement of Europeans within Europe I don't see as a big problem ( sure it was made more problematic when some of the old Eastern Bloc Countries got brought into the fold ).But if you look at the people that currently keep our Service and Hospitality Industries our NHS, Agriculture and Construction running a large % would be Europeans - as the NHS is finding already if this source of labour dries up we are in trouble. Factor in the return of retirement age Brits who have been living in the Costa Del Sol to  further clog the NHS as they are being kicked out of Spain or not allowed to leave to live there then we start to see real problems.
It's not even like the UK is currently suffering from high un-employment so these people can't be accused of "stealing jobs" either.

For me, I think we need to work harder to prevent non Europeans from entering the UK and Political refugees who have already traveled through half of Europe to get to us. Obviously we need to take our quota like many Countries do but for those that come here from Europe to work and learn - paying taxes back into our system I don't have an issue - in fact I think they are essential to our Countries continued growth.
We need to remember it works both ways - we benefit greatly from the Freedom of Movement in Europe. I wonder how many of those that voted for Brexit will be grumbling when they go on holiday to Spain and find they have to queue in the non EU Citizen lines at the Spanish Airport for 3 hours and also find their EU Health Card is no longer valid there. Or when they stay in the UK there is no one to pour their pint or clean their room as all The Polish have gone home......
Many people had different reasons for voting Brexit or Remain - which is why getting the "right" deal is impossible as everyone has their own idea of what life outside the EU should look like.


DavidL

June 13, 2017, 10:47:48 am #1118 Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 17:56:16 pm by DavidL
Quote from: The Letter R on June 13, 2017, 09:30:04 am
The free movement of Europeans within Europe I don't see as a big problem ( sure it was made more problematic when some of the old Eastern Bloc Countries got brought into the fold ).But if you look at the people that currently keep our Service and Hospitality Industries our NHS, Agriculture and Construction running a large % would be Europeans - as the NHS is finding already if this source of labour dries up we are in trouble. Factor in the return of retirement age Brits who have been living in the Costa Del Sol to  further clog the NHS as they are being kicked out of Spain or not allowed to leave to live there then we start to see real problems.
It's not even like the UK is currently suffering from high un-employment so these people can't be accused of "stealing jobs" either.

For me, I think we need to work harder to prevent non Europeans from entering the UK and Political refugees who have already traveled through half of Europe to get to us. Obviously we need to take our quota like many Countries do but for those that come here from Europe to work and learn - paying taxes back into our system I don't have an issue - in fact I think they are essential to our Countries continued growth.
We need to remember it works both ways - we benefit greatly from the Freedom of Movement in Europe. I wonder how many of those that voted for Brexit will be grumbling when they go on holiday to Spain and find they have to queue in the non EU Citizen lines at the Spanish Airport for 3 hours and also find their EU Health Card is no longer valid there. Or when they stay in the UK there is no one to pour their pint or clean their room as all The Polish have gone home......
Many people had different reasons for voting Brexit or Remain - which is why getting the "right" deal is impossible as everyone has their own idea of what life outside the EU should look like.
You raise a lot of good points there, Mr R - especially when you mention older Brits that may require health care and our relatively high employment levels although, I'd have thought that the factors resulting in an aging UK population (advances in medicine etc.) would also be at work in other countries. Many (if not all) countries are going to find they have an increasing retired population needed to be supported by fewer in work.  This makes me wonder whether we should feel comfortable selfishly enticing the young wealth producers of poor countries when they will surely be needed at home in the future.You suggest that we should do more to prevent non-Europeans from coming here but why the discrimination?  You also rightly point out that one of the main problems of free movement is around those that come from the 'old' eastern bloc countries and this is the source of one of the fundamental flaws in the EU's 'expansionist' agenda. Principally, workers from these countries are a main driver for keeping wages low, mostly in low-skilled jobs. The NHS situation has arisen largely because it is easier/cheaper to import staff from abroad than provide training places for British nationals. I don't believe there is a shortage of young people that would like to train for nursing positions etc. in this country (providing the salaries are reasonable). It seems pretty unfair that we are expecting the poor countries of Europe to meet the cost of training health professionals, only for them to leave for the UK once qualified, for a far higher reward. We are addicted to cheap labour and the EU can provide an unlimited supply. I now expect that it will be very difficult to stop free movement per se, I think we will come to an agreement where free movement will continue for those with offers of employment. There is little chance of the government's targets being met if this is the case. Whilst the UK remains a 'honey pot' those from poorer nations will always want to come.
I don't fully agree (surprise, surprise!) that we can be completely comfortable with the fact that workers from the EU are contributing to the tax-take without, at the same time, presenting many challenges to services, housing, infrastructure etc. If levels were reasonable it would be possible to manage these additional demands but to provide for over 300k new UK residents per year is just not possible.
The refugee point is well made but without a coherent and sensible approach by the EU, it will remain a problem. Countries such as France are unwilling to implement current guidelines and are content to shift the problem to the UK. Refugees in Calais should have been settled long before they reach there, if they are unwilling to accept the offer of refuge in any country other than the UK, they compromise their status as refugees (exception being those with family already in the UK). Frankly, I see no solutions coming from the EU on this issue - like many other things they are prepared to keep kicking the can further down the road on this.


The Letter R

Quote from: DavidL on June 13, 2017, 10:47:48 am
You suggest that we should do more to prevent non-Europeans from coming here but why the discrimination? 



Well this is driven by the fact that we have more control over this - ie not driven by EU Directives and to almost mirror other non EU Countries - we only allow people in on a points based or similar system just as a UK Resident would when trying to move to another Country.

DavidL

Quote from: The Letter R on June 13, 2017, 14:19:15 pm

Well this is driven by the fact that we have more control over this - ie not driven by EU Directives and to almost mirror other non EU Countries - we only allow people in on a points based or similar system just as a UK Resident would when trying to move to another Country.
I understand this but it's wrong, IMO, that we should not have these same controls for EU citizens rather than have no control just because their own countries belong to the same 'club'.

The Letter R

Quote from: DavidL on June 13, 2017, 15:20:20 pm
I understand this but it's wrong, IMO, that we should not have these same controls for EU citizens rather than have no control just because their own countries belong to the same 'club'.



Well we do or did not sure now to be honest also have a more lenient approach to Commonwealth Countries too - be interested to know how this stands now, and they are all part of another "club".


I get your argument David but for UK Citizens to expect free movement around the EU then we obviously need to allow this to fellow Citizens of the EU - I honestly don't think that many that voted for Brexit purely on the "immigration issue" really grasped this concept. People somehow think we can negotiate a one way street package that suits just us, that simply isn't going to happen.
Bottom line is without the free movement of people the UK will be a worse not better place to live as many of the jobs the EU workers are going to leave behind will not be filled by the benefit Britain handout brigade left.


döm

Clock is ticking towards Brexit and the UK seems to be blindly heading towards it without any discernable strategy.


Hopefully looks are deceiving
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

zoony

Macro says the door is still open for us. Here we go. We voted out didn't we?

Nick

Everybody's got to evalate from the norm.