Brexit watch

Started by Nick, October 20, 2016, 17:02:39 pm

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döm

November 10, 2016, 23:35:21 pm #210 Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 23:37:14 pm by döm
Quote from: Slim on November 10, 2016, 14:40:22 pm
It will (for example) allow us to reduce immigration from Eastern Europe dramatically, reducing strain on public services and safeguarding jobs for British workers



Harming British industry in the process and forcing prices up for the British consumer presumably
.
QuoteIt will allow us to overturn laws that aren't useful or wanted.

Sounds good in principal but I'd be interested to see how this will actually provide any benefit to the country as a whole.


QuoteAnd we won't be forking out cash to prop up other countries' economies.[\quote]

Sure about that? I'mean sure that will continue in one form or another
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

DavidL

Quote from: döm on November 10, 2016, 23:35:21 pm

Harming British industry in the process and forcing prices up for the British consumer presumably
British industry needs to be weaned of its addiction to cheap labour from some of the poorest countries in the EU. The consumer needs to be weaned off unrealistically cheap prices. This will probably reduce profits and cause price rises but the correction is necessary, if for no better reason than to prevent young skilled Eastern Europeans removing those skills from their own countries.

döm

Quote from: DavidL on November 11, 2016, 00:08:31 am
British industry needs to be weaned of its addiction to cheap labour from some of the poorest countries in the EU. The consumer needs to be weaned off unrealistically cheap prices. This will probably reduce profits and cause price rises but the correction is necessary, if for no better reason than to prevent young skilled Eastern Europeans removing those skills from their own countries.



I find it very interesting that those whose lean to the right politically extol the virtues of the free market and insist that government interference is a serious impediment to the workings of the market.
Until it comes to immigration. Then Government interventions are to be welcomed to curb the instincts of market economics.
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

DavidL

Quote from: döm on November 11, 2016, 07:27:20 am

I find it very interesting that those whose lean to the right politically extol the virtues of the free market and insist that government interference is a serious impediment to the workings of the market.
Until it comes to immigration. Then Government interventions are to be welcomed to curb the instincts of market economics.
The free market in labour does not work when there are such large disparities between economies and living standards. Right, Left, Centre, that's just a fact.

Slim

Quote from: döm on November 11, 2016, 07:27:20 amI find it very interesting that those whose lean to the right politically extol the virtues of the free market and insist that government interference is a serious impediment to the workings of the market.
Until it comes to immigration. Then Government interventions are to be welcomed to curb the instincts of market economics.


But Dom, these issues are complicated and nuanced, not painted in simple black and white. We don't actually live in a free market, laissez faire economy. We pay taxes.

Slim

Quote from: DavidL on November 11, 2016, 08:46:42 am
The free market in labour does not work when there are such large disparities between economies and living standards. Right, Left, Centre, that's just a fact.


Yes, it might be a different matter if there were a level, global playing field. But for example the minimum wage in this country is an artificial construct that has nothing to do with a free market in jobs or anything else. It's dramatically higher than the wage for many jobs in other countries where wages are governed more legitimately by market conditions.

döm

Quote from: DavidL on November 11, 2016, 08:46:42 am
The free market in labour does not work when there are such large disparities between economies and living standards. Right, Left, Centre, that's just a fact.



But it is working in the single market - when migrants come to areas where wages are higher and opportunities greater, then it's working.   That is the invisible hand in effect.   
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

döm

Quote from: Slim on November 11, 2016, 09:03:57 am
But Dom, these issues are complicated and nuanced, not painted in simple black and white. We don't actually live in a free market, laissez faire economy. We pay taxes.



I always thought the stated aim of on the right was to reduce the impact of Government in all areas; less taxes, less red tape and interference.  To reduce the impact of Government as much as possible.


If the EU's stated aim of tax harmonisation ever reached fruition, would you have been more open to free movement of labour in that circumstance ?
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

DavidL

Quote from: döm on November 11, 2016, 09:51:17 am

But it is working in the single market - when migrants come to areas where wages are higher and opportunities greater, then it's working.   That is the invisible hand in effect.
And what happens in those countries where wages are lower and opportunities less?

döm

Quote from: DavidL on November 11, 2016, 10:57:38 am
And what happens in those countries where wages are lower and opportunities less?



migration - as happens all the time.  From the country to the city for example with the industrial revolution.


You would imagine that as improvements occur in those countries and wages rise due to the lower supply of labour there would be a degree of balancing. This is already happening in Poland. And its not as if the whole of Eastern Europe has been emptied. 
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

Nick

Pre Brexit the UK was doing well economically and if i recall at 95% employment (which technically is 100% as 5% of the population are unemployable for one reason or another). So once the Brexshiteers have repatriated all the "immigrants" who is going to replace the reliable and hard working Poles/Lithuanians/Euros ? Perhaps now the benefit cap has been reduced by £6000 some new workers may become available, but "reliable and hard working"?
Everybody's got to evalate from the norm.

DavidL

Quote from: Nick on November 11, 2016, 18:43:56 pm
Pre Brexit the UK was doing well economically and if i recall at 95% employment (which technically is 100% as 5% of the population are unemployable for one reason or another). So once the Brexshiteers have repatriated all the "immigrants" who is going to replace the reliable and hard working Poles/Lithuanians/Euros ? Perhaps now the benefit cap has been reduced by £6000 some new workers may become available, but "reliable and hard working"?
Probably nowhere near as motivated as a Polish worker who could be earning up to four times the wage earned in Poland, even on the UK minimum wage. Taking into account the difference in cost of living between the two countries, even the minimum wage is twice as much as average earnings in Poland. They don't need any other reason to be reliable and work hard.

Slim

Quote from: Nick on November 11, 2016, 18:43:56 pm
Pre Brexit the UK was doing well economically and if i recall at 95% employment (which technically is 100% as 5% of the population are unemployable for one reason or another). So once the Brexshiteers have repatriated all the "immigrants" who is going to replace the reliable and hard working Poles/Lithuanians/Euros ? Perhaps now the benefit cap has been reduced by £6000 some new workers may become available, but "reliable and hard working"?


Well, the point of being able to control immigration is not to prevent it completely. You do make an excellent point about what the welfare state and world-owes-me-a-living culture has done to this country, though. I well remember that documentary a few years ago where they found jobs for people on Job Seeker's Allowance. As I recall half of them simply didn't turn up for work after the first day and most of those who did just couldn't be arsed to work anyway.

DavidL

November 15, 2016, 13:29:51 pm #223 Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 13:32:36 pm by DavidL
John McDonnell:

"Labour accepts the referendum result as the voice of the majority and we must embrace the enormous opportunities to reshape our country that Brexit has opened for us".  :o

"This means we must not try to re-fight the referendum or push for a second vote and if article 50 needs to be triggered in parliament Labour will not seek to block or delay it".  :o

"It is time we all were more positive about Brexit"  :o

"Labour wants to see an ambitious Brexit Britain"  :o

What a first class numpty. So the court case was a complete waste of time. Those judges could have stayed on the golf course.

Nick

No plan and 30000 more civil servants required. What a farce.
Everybody's got to evalate from the norm.