Brexit watch

Started by Nick, October 20, 2016, 18:02:39 pm

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Slim

Quote from: döm on August 18, 2019, 15:28:14 pmThe time for threats is long gone. Who's being threatened and for what purpose?

The British people are being threatened, in an attempt to maintain the status quo and defeat their say in who governs them.

Slim

Quote from: döm on August 18, 2019, 14:12:41 pmLooking back, perhaps the referendum should have been on a no deal exit. Everyone would have known exactly what they were letting themselves in for and as a result it would have been much less likely to happen.
That would have been silly, because a deal that's advantageous to both sides was entirely possible. A remainer Prime Minister fecked it up.

As for being a "great country" and revoking A50 .. you can't have both. A great country doesn't cede control of its borders, its seas and its laws to foreign powers who have shown themselves determined to be our enemy.  And it certainly doesn't spit on millions of its people for having the temerity to have a say in who governs them, by ignoring a referendum that it promised would be honoured.

Slim

As for the leak to the Sunday Times, surely the most significant snippet is that a hard border between NI and the Republic is expected in the event of a no deal. I have to wonder who exactly would construct this border infrastructure, but if that is indeed the case - well, the ball is firmly in the EU's court, so I hope they're having a good think about how much they want to avoid it.

We'll see how much the mandarins in their EU ivory towers care about circumstances on the ground in Ireland over the next couple of months. Not very much, is my suspicion. But we'll see.

döm

Quote from: Slim on August 18, 2019, 16:02:03 pmAs for the leak to the Sunday Times, surely the most significant snippet is that a hard border between NI and the Republic is expected in the event of a no deal. I have to wonder who exactly would construct this border infrastructure, but if that is indeed the case - well, the ball is firmly in the EU's court, so I hope they're having a good think about how much they want to avoid it.

We'll see how much the mandarins in their EU ivory towers care about circumstances on the ground in Ireland over the next couple of months. Not very much, is my suspicion. But we'll see.
It has to be constructed. WTO rules stipulate that they have to be on place for countries that have different trading arrangements.

It was the UK that agreed to put the backstop in the 1st  place and then chose to extend it (after protests from the DUP) from Northern Ireland to the whole of the UK.

The Backstop is absolutely crucial to maintain the Good Friday agreement.  For Johnson to say it must be scrapped as a pre-condition for the resumption of talks means he's not interested in negotiating
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döm

Quote from: Slim on August 18, 2019, 15:47:31 pmThe British people are being threatened, in an attempt to maintain the status quo and defeat their say in who governs them.
And what are they supposed to do? A threat normally works like this.... Unless you do (A), (B)  will happen to you. The leak is B, what's the A. What are the British people supposed to be doing so that B won't happen?
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Nick

Quote from: Slim on August 18, 2019, 15:54:07 pmThat would have been silly, because a deal that's advantageous to both sides was entirely possible. 
Yes some people chose to believe a "trade deal would be one of the easiest in human history" without taking on board what the experts were telling them or dismissing it as project fear. Now that Yellowhammer has leaked project fear is in fact project reality.

lets hope people don't actually have to die to keep this bunch of clowns in government.
Everybody's got to evalate from the norm.

rufus the dawg

Nick it's just scaremongering made up by the left because it's the left's fault. They are everywhere and I blame the left for everything.

Those lefties wearing socks with open toed sandals and woven ties are everywhere. They have infiltrated the system. They have even called the report after a bird, bloody lefty twitchers. I might have to eat lentils next.

I was on social media the other day and what the left were putting up is tearing this country apart. How dare they not agree with my view. Because all my slogans are right. I know they are right because I am right and the right is always right. It's in the words right is right.

You are either with me or against me. Right is right, all those nasty remainers wanting to question my slogans; how dare they because I can not back them up with evidence. 

I know i am right because right is right. And I am always right.

Nick

Unfortunately Brexit breaks political affiliations on all sides.
Everybody's got to evalate from the norm.

Nïckslïkk2112

Quote from: rufus the dawg on August 19, 2019, 11:24:54 amNick it's just scaremongering made up by the left because it's the left's fault. They are everywhere and I blame the left for everything.

Those lefties wearing socks with open toed sandals and woven ties are everywhere. They have infiltrated the system. They have even called the report after a bird, bloody lefty twitchers. I might have to eat lentils next.

I was on social media the other day and what the left were putting up is tearing this country apart. How dare they not agree with my view. Because all my slogans are right. I know they are right because I am right and the right is always right. It's in the words right is right.

You are either with me or against me. Right is right, all those nasty remainers wanting to question my slogans; how dare they because I can not back them up with evidence.

I know i am right because right is right. And I am always right.
You talk shit.

The left don't wear ties.
Legend in my own Mind


The Letter R

Quote from: döm on August 18, 2019, 16:34:14 pmIt has to be constructed. WTO rules stipulate that they have to be on place for countries that have different trading arrangements.
Actually I am not sure that is true - sources I have found seem to suggest it is not a WTO issue unless another member complains then they can only recommend - I don't think the WTO actually has the power to enforce anything

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2018/07/18/does-the-wto-require-countries-to-control-their-borders/

döm

Quote from: The Letter R on August 19, 2019, 13:37:21 pmActually I am not sure that is true - sources I have found seem to suggest it is not a WTO issue unless another member complains then they can only recommend - I don't think the WTO actually has the power to enforce anything

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2018/07/18/does-the-wto-require-countries-to-control-their-borders/

ok so the WTO itself won't act, but if a country doesn't have a border with another one then a 3rd country would be entitled to complain that their goods and services were being unfairly treated as a result.
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The Letter R

Quote from: döm on August 19, 2019, 14:43:13 pmok so the WTO itself won't act, but if a country doesn't have a border with another one then a 3rd country would be entitled to complain that their goods and services were being unfairly treated as a result.
Yes - if a member state of the WTO complains to the WTO Officially then a dispute could be lodged but again the WTO seems on the face of it to be fairly powerless. WTO resolution panels can only recommend that a state corrects its "violation" in the future, this can be ignored and no compensation can be sought from the complainant. In the case of the Irish Border or lack of, then would the UK or EU be at fault or both? No EU member state would make a complaint as the EU conducts litigation on behalf of its members so it wouldn't bring a complaint against itself.

Slim

Quote from: döm on August 18, 2019, 16:34:14 pmIt has to be constructed. WTO rules stipulate that they have to be on place for countries that have different trading arrangements.

It was the UK that agreed to put the backstop in the 1st  place and then chose to extend it (after protests from the DUP) from Northern Ireland to the whole of the UK.

The Backstop is absolutely crucial to maintain the Good Friday agreement.  For Johnson to say it must be scrapped as a pre-condition for the resumption of talks means he's not interested in negotiating

Here's the thing, Dom. The backstop is simply not going to happen. Parliament won't wear it. That's not really Boris' fault. He couldn't get the backstop through parliament if he tried. Sure, a substantial number of Tory MPs don't like it; nor should they. But the opposition parties won't accept it either.

The Prime Minister may have agreed to it in principle, but she couldn't make it fly. And that's why you're simply wrong to say that the UK agreed to it.

So that's the situation we have. The British Government has offered to negotiate in a spirit of constructive good will. The EU apparently greatly prefers no deal and whatever that entails for the Republic, which of course is one of its member states.

Boris has set out a clear explanation of why the backstop is not going to happen, and actually offered a legal commitment not to construct physical infrastructure on our border with the Republic. Would the Irish government build it?

It's clear to me that the whole thing has been just another negotiating trick. Frightening people in one of their own member states with the fear of violence and unrest for their own political ends. That's a club we don't really need to be a member of.

döm

So the UK is happy to have no border between itself and the EU?   I thought the UK wanted control over its borders?  It wanted to end freedom of movement didn't it?  If there's no border between the North and the Republic, a flight by anyone from anywhere in the EU into Dublin will effectively mean they have free access to anywhere in the UK

If the UK enters into a trade deal with another country which allows for food to be imported of a lower or different standard (chlorinated Chicken or GM food for example) then the EU will have no choice but to impose a border to prevent such food freely passing into the EU.  The only way to prevent this is for the UK and the EU to stay aligned in terms of standards.  Is the UK prepared to do this when it will scupper any chance of a trade deal with the US?  

Perhaps this is all moot anyway as the congress and senate in the US won't allow for any trade deal between itself and the UK which adversely affects the Good Friday Agreement.
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döm

Quote from: The Letter R on August 20, 2019, 09:53:04 amYes - if a member state of the WTO complains to the WTO Officially then a dispute could be lodged but again the WTO seems on the face of it to be fairly powerless. WTO resolution panels can only recommend that a state corrects its "violation" in the future, this can be ignored and no compensation can be sought from the complainant. In the case of the Irish Border or lack of, then would the UK or EU be at fault or both? No EU member state would make a complaint as the EU conducts litigation on behalf of its members so it wouldn't bring a complaint against itself.

Any product that had tariffs imposed on it coming into the EU or UK could be imported from the UK to the EU or vice versa tariff free.  This would be unacceptable to every member nation of the WTO that had impacted products. Its not a sustainable situation.
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