Brexit watch

Started by Nick, October 20, 2016, 18:02:39 pm

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DavidL

Quote from: rufus the dawg on August 08, 2019, 15:32:22 pmDavid Davis was the Brexit secretary. For heavens sake take some responsibility.

Leave lied to get a result that were/are unable implement it.
Remain lied.....but didn't get a result  ;D

rufus the dawg

Quote from: DavidL on August 08, 2019, 15:53:40 pmRemain lied.....but didn't get a result  ;D
David the referendum was about bring democracy home not lying.

So lying from both sides does not make it right. Does it?

You are proving to me that the the problems that created Brexit were not the EU fault but UK governments blaming their home problems on the EU.

UK governments for years have been lying and not following their manifestos and running the country with minority governments in terms of votes cast.

Slim

Quote from: The Letter R on August 08, 2019, 09:41:05 amI've yet to hear this "deal" they want to put forward though.....maybe someone can tell me what it is?

At the moment we just want to enter negotiations with an open mind - I'm sure there are proposals ready to be made, but it it would hardly be helpful to start negotiating by proxy through the media. I suspect something like a Canada Plus agreement would be proposed.

But the EU seem intent on No Deal, sadly. There seems to be no reasoning with these people. It's no use pointing out that Theresa wasted three years on negotiating a withdrawal agreement that they liked. That's not helpful to anyone. It's pointless. It simply won't fly.

It's little wonder that these people had to be rescued from the Germans by us and the Americans. They seem to be hopeless.

Slim

Quote from: rufus the dawg on August 08, 2019, 15:29:17 pmPass the buck again when will you all on the leave take some responsibility. We are leaving them, "quick and easy" leave said. "We hold all the cards" all 52 of them we can have cake and eat it. Looks like the EU hold all the cards and the joker plus the rule book to me.

I'm sure it does look something like that when you're on your knees looking obediently upwards at them. In reality, I rather think that the present government led by a Prime Minister prepared to fight our corner has grabbed back a lot of the cards from them.

Slim

Quote from: rufus the dawg on August 08, 2019, 15:41:08 pmEven if we now leave on WTO terms we still eventually have to come to a deal with the EU.

That will involve us selling in to the EU and accepting their rules and having zero say.

This is pure nonsense. Drivel. That ship has sailed. On November 1st we become their single largest trading partner, and we'll come to a deal with them on terms that suit us.

And once reality dawns that we held firm and gave them the middle finger, they will come crawling on their knees for a trade deal on a trail of garlic slime.

DavidL

Quote from: rufus the dawg on August 08, 2019, 23:06:44 pmDavid the referendum was about bring democracy home not lying.

So lying from both sides does not make it right. Does it?

You are proving to me that the the problems that created Brexit were not the EU fault but UK governments blaming their home problems on the EU.

UK governments for years have been lying and not following their manifestos and running the country with minority governments in terms of votes cast.
I suspect you'd have been perfectly happy with the conduct of both sides.... if Remain had won.

döm

Quote from: Slim on August 08, 2019, 23:46:06 pmThis is pure nonsense. Drivel. That ship has sailed. On November 1st we become their single largest trading partner, and we'll come to a deal with them on terms that suit us.

And once reality dawns that we held firm and gave them the middle finger, they will come crawling on their knees for a trade deal on a trail of garlic slime.
I think this thinking is why this whole process is turning into such a mess.
An over-inflated view of the strength of the UK compared to its European partners.
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

Slim

It turned into a mess, until very recently, because a remainer PM with no negotiating skills treated the whole thing like a damage limitation exercise, and because the EU's useful idiots and quislings over here were determined to undermine the whole process and betray the British people on behalf of their foreign masters.

As indeed they still are: Corbyn has asked the cabinet secretary to intervene in the event of a no-confidence motion being passed. He wants to extend our spell in the EU prison until the General Election could take place.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49285670

The pretext for this is that it's "anti-democratic" to leave the EU while an election is pending.

But this is pure nonsense, isn't it? Parliament has already put in place the legislation by which we leave the EU. Parliament has already voted to declare Article 50, without a deal with the EU being a precondition.

Certainly, revoking any of this before a General Election would be a gross violation of democracy. I can't think of anything more liable to provoke disunity, anger and possibly political violence than some sort of unholy cabal of scheming parliamentarians seizing control of government in order to defy the people's instruction. Especially when it's something as fundamental as who governs us. That would be a vile abuse of the public's trust.

I don't think any of us could have imagined that the remainers would turn out to be so extraordinarily illiberal and toxic. I don't mean everyone who voted to remain, of course. Many I'm sure understand the need for a public vote to be respected. But the likes of Grieve, Soubry, Benn, Watson, Bercow .. there's going to be a time when they account for the division they have brought to our country.

Matt2112

Quote from: rufus the dawg on August 08, 2019, 15:24:51 pmWe are leaving them, its up to us not them.  Remain did say but it was scaremongering remember
The point of a "deal" is that it's a constructive negotiation between two parties for the purpose of a mutual agreement.  There will, in theory, be trade-offs and compromises, otherwise it won't work.

When one of those parties refuses to negotiate like some toddler having a three-year long strop then what can you do?
The keys to happiness

döm

Quote from: Matt2112 on August 09, 2019, 11:49:02 amThe point of a "deal" is that it's a constructive negotiation between two parties for the purpose of a mutual agreement.  There will, in theory, be trade-offs and compromises, otherwise it won't work.

When one of those parties refuses to negotiate like some toddler having a three-year long strop then what can you do?
For the sake of clarity Matt - which side are you referring to here ?
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

Matt2112

August 09, 2019, 19:29:50 pm #3130 Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 19:32:58 pm by Matt2112
Quote from: döm on August 09, 2019, 17:35:35 pmFor the sake of clarity Matt - which side are you referring to here ?
That refers to the EU side.

They are refusing to negotiate point blank.

The UK side have negotiated extremely poorly, yes, but at least we've showed a hand.

Both parties between them have not fulfilled their brief of serving the people and the whole thing is the proverbial clusterfcuk all round.

I find myself in the strange position of nodding my head at posts from both sides of the debate on this thread.

But let's get this whole sorry affair over with somehow and honour the vote.
The keys to happiness

rufus the dawg

Quote from: DavidL on August 09, 2019, 00:11:29 amI suspect you'd have been perfectly happy with the conduct of both sides.... if Remain had won.
No I would not.

The whole UK governance and party system is corrupt to its core and needs pulling apart and reforming.

I feel your argument falls down because you/leave are meant to be better that the corrupt unelected EU. leave have lied to get the result. Getting a result through lies is not democratic and is the reason why we are in this mess. With a bunch a right wing nut cases running the country with no hope and about to embark on a process with zero democratic legitimacy.

rufus the dawg

Quote from: Slim on August 09, 2019, 10:54:17 amBut this is pure nonsense, isn't it? Parliament has already put in place the legislation by which we leave the EU. Parliament has already voted to declare Article 50, without a deal with the EU being a precondition.

Parliament voted for article 50 so that Theresa May could negotiate a deal with the EU, nothing more.

rufus the dawg

Quote from: Slim on August 09, 2019, 10:54:17 amI can't think of anything more liable to provoke disunity, anger and possibly political violence than some sort of unholy cabal of scheming parliamentarians seizing control of government in order to defy the people's instruction. Especially when it's something as fundamental as who governs us. That would be a vile abuse of the public's trust.

I don't think any of us could have imagined that the remainers would turn out to be so extraordinarily illiberal and toxic. I don't mean everyone who voted to remain, of course. Many I'm sure understand the need for a public vote to be respected. But the likes of Grieve, Soubry, Benn, Watson, Bercow .. there's going to be a time when they account for the division they have brought to our country.
You voted to give parliament power and they are using it. I do not see any problem with that. You seem confused? All because parliament is doing what you want it to do but because you disagree with it you spout a load of dangerous hyperbole.

DavidL