The Richard Dawkins Thread 2

Started by Andy42g, May 01, 2012, 13:35:23 pm

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Andy42g

Quote from: Bisto on May 01, 2012, 15:24:14 pm
Oh, this again............pfffft. sorry I've got too much of my own boring/pointless shit to think/talk/worry about

:) Bye then.
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döm

I should stop actually as I'm not very good at this and it's too easy a fight for you.  What I'm actually doing is giving full reign for you, Ron, Matt, Chris etc to enter into a debate with virtually no opposition.  At least if I step aside you may argue among yourselves  ;D
When the truth offends we lie and lie until we can longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is repaid

Andy42g

Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 16:41:48 pm
I should stop actually as I'm not very good at this and it's too easy a fight for you. 

Fair enough. But it is worth having a go. If you can refute the points from 'our side' then go for it.
It's hard arguing for religion isn't it? That's because there's absolutely no logic to it!

Quote
What I'm actually doing is giving full reign for you, Ron, Matt, Chris etc to enter into a debate with virtually no opposition.  At least if I step aside you may argue among yourselves  ;D

We won't argue because we are all singing from the same, err, hymn sheet.
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döm

Quote from: Andy42g on May 01, 2012, 16:59:30 pm
Fair enough. But it is worth having a go. If you can refute the points from 'our side' then go for it.
It's hard arguing for religion isn't it? hat's because there's no logic to it!
We won't argue because we are all singing from the same, err, hymn sheet.


That's the thing I don't particularly want to argue for religion.  It's more that I'm against atheism.  Why not leave religion alone and go and do some science ?  :D
When the truth offends we lie and lie until we can longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is repaid

Andy42g

May 01, 2012, 17:12:15 pm #19 Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 17:17:47 pm by Andy42g
Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 17:01:54 pm
That's the thing I don't particularly want to argue for religion.  It's more that I'm against atheism.  Why not leave religion alone and go and do some science ?  :D

I guess in the "post Dawkins" era atheists now feel they can merrily speak out against religion and confidently voice all the arguments they want to. Previously there was an underlying "how dare you - you should have respect for religion" thing going on. Feck that - respect has to be earned and now with the cat out of the bag it's obvious that religion (both "belief" as a concept and  'the church' in it's various forms) really does not deserve much, or indeed any. The fact we speak out against religion comes exactly from "doing science" - or at least reading about it or continually opening our minds to it. The more you do that the more bloody ridiculous religion looks with it's middle aged misogyny, everything-phobic culture and man in the sky superstition and ritual.
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Chris Quartly

I am interested in where we (let's call us "the atheist brigade", I'm sure we've all been called worse...) do potentially differ.

Religion has already had to give so much to scientific evidence as well as humanistic and secular victories, it tries to claim the credit for much, but has delivered very little, and these days offers nothing and better options are available.

Are we just simply ignoring the nuances of religion? Would a more "sophisticated" understanding of theology help? Are science and religion compatible at all? My answer is of course, no, these are tools that those of faith cling to with little relevance. When something in science is disproved it is discarded, when something in theology is disproved it simply becomes a metaphor... I don't see how this is helpful, is theology even a subject at all? If god exists outside of the sphere of human observation, then surely all attempts at understanding are worthless and we can only carry on assuming one doesn't exist.

What evidence could there possibly be that would make us "believe"?
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Matt2112

Quote from: Chris Quartly on May 01, 2012, 17:27:28 pmis theology even a subject at all?


Nope, it's arbitrary, unfalsifiable made-up stuff about...erm, made-up stuff.

Theology is akin to a blind-folded person in an unlit windowless room at midnight looking for a black cat that isn't there.

QuoteWhat evidence could there possibly be that would make us "believe"?


Good question.  Peter Collins?  ;)
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ianb

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in the stance you're taking in a debate ... without conflicting opinion there's no debate!

The wise man will always disagree with another! ;)
'A modern day warrior mean mean stride'

Chris Quartly

Regardless of a debate, it doesn't matter what anyone believes, things are either true or they aren't, regardless of how we feel about it.

Take evolution vs creationism/intelligent design, there's a good argument to say it's not worth even "debating", since it gives right to the idea that there's a legitimate "other side"...
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Matt2112

Quote from: Chris Quartly on May 02, 2012, 03:56:22 amTake evolution vs creationism/intelligent design, there's a good argument to say it's not worth even "debating", since it gives right to the idea that there's a legitimate "other side"...


Much like human biology vs stork theory, chemistry vs alchemy, Hold Your Fire vs Caress Of Steel etc etc  ;)
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Topper

Quote from: Chris Quartly on May 02, 2012, 03:56:22 am
Regardless of a debate, it doesn't matter what anyone believes, things are either true or they aren't, regardless of how we feel about it.

Take evolution vs creationism/intelligent design, there's a good argument to say it's not worth even "debating", since it gives right to the idea that there's a legitimate "other side"...


One of the things that gets me is when a "Creationist/intelligent design" supporter says about Evolution, "It's only a THEORY". As if someone just threw the evolution idea out there without millions of pages to support it.  Anyway, peace. :)

döm

Yes creationism is annoying and pathetic
When the truth offends we lie and lie until we can longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is repaid

Jonners

I dont particularly feel I have an awful lot to add to this debate that has not already been said, but as a Christian, my only real annoyance from this type of discussion is the obvious vehemence and pleasure atheists get from debunking and ridiculing people with faith.

Sometimes you can almost feel the hatred and bile physically building.

(must be a bit like being a fan of modern Rush!)
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Matt2112

Quote from: Jonners on May 02, 2012, 12:34:44 pm
I dont particularly feel I have an awful lot to add to this debate that has not already been said, but as a Christian, my only real annoyance from this type of discussion is the obvious vehemence and pleasure atheists get from debunking and ridiculing people with faith.


No, no, no....it's against the ideas, not the people who hold them.  Huge difference.  Otherwise, I'd be fulminating against almost all of my extended Irish Catholic family and many close friends.  We should guard against ad hominem attacks, incoming and outgoing.

I take no pleasure from it, personally - I'd only take any pleasure from it if it was unnecessary.  But unfortunately it isn't.
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Andy42g

May 02, 2012, 12:56:39 pm #29 Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 13:07:15 pm by Andy42g
Quote from: Chris Quartly on May 01, 2012, 17:27:28 pm
I am interested in where we (let's call us "the atheist brigade", I'm sure we've all been called worse...) do potentially differ.

My stance is that of course 'God' exists, but only in the heads of each individual believer. Belief is purely a self help system. Prayer is simply self help - the stuff the rest of us do every day by having a think, but we don't attribute it to a man in the sky/voices in our head.

Given all the various god systems which have come and gone - Norse, Viking, Greek, Egyptian, Aztec, Mayan etc etc it's interesting that as soon as the civilisations who worshipped them disappeared then so did the gods. So obviously they were all made up by these civilisations.

Science/discovery/knowledge has shown us there's no Greek gods on top of Mount Olympus in exactly the same way as there's no evidence for any of the christian biblical stories old testament exodus; Adam and Eve or a flood, virgin births, sons of gods, resurrections etc etc. It's just old myths and legends. It's all just made up, and most christians these days will acknowledge it as such - oh except somehow for the resurrection because without that their whole religion makes no sense. "Cognitive dissonance" it is where there's a complete blank spot in an otherwise sane person over something which would compromise an ideal entirely. Most christians (and the catholic Church) are perfectly happy with the concept of evolution (if they have bothered to actually understand it that is) which wipes out all religious explanation of creation, and yet they still stick to a "goddidit" when it comes to stuff that 'science' still cannot 100% explain.

So many contradictions are brought on by belief and it's a fascinating, illogical concept, and seems to getting more and more illogical,  and plain nutty (hello USA), the more science finds out 'stuff' and consigns current favoured religious explanations to the dustbin of myth and legend. Seems like desperation which drives people into Evangelism, Mormonism or Scientology for instance. "Belief" seems to come out of what...? Ignorance, neediness and/or indoctrination and it seems once afflicted with it it's very difficult to shake off.

As for "Theology" - it's the study of the church an churches etc, which is fine. It's history. There's a difference between that kind of stuff and 'spirituality' which definitely is stepping into the realm of made up stuff - may as well study faeries or astrology.

QuoteWhat evidence could there possibly be that would make us "believe"?

Rabbit fossil in amongst a dinosaur shale? Or would that have been put there by god as a double bluff to test us...?
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