The Richard Dawkins Thread 2

Started by Andy42g, May 01, 2012, 13:35:23 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Andy42g

Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 13:22:08 pm
Getting rid of belief systems or religion or whatever you want to call it is all well and good, but what are you trying to eradicate by removing them ?   

I don't think society would improve if religion was removed as the evil that you see inherent in it is actually part of the human psyche and will not disappear even if "belief systems" do.


Carry on ...
Why isn't there a sarcasm font?

Andy42g

QuoteGetting rid of belief systems or religion or whatever you want to call it is all well and good, but what are you trying to eradicate by removing them ?   

This of course will never happen but what can be removed is the influence of "churches". Their ability to foist their views, customs and superstitions on others should be eradicated.

QuoteI don't think society would improve if religion was removed

Depends what you mean. If by religion you mean "belief" then we'll never remove that.

Quoteas the evil that you see inherent in it is actually part of the human psyche and will not disappear even if "belief systems" do.

So, we could get rid of religion and still all be the same people. And the evil that religion causes would be gone so in effect society would be better off.
Why isn't there a sarcasm font?

Andy42g

Why isn't there a sarcasm font?

döm

So you be happy to eradicate differences in culture and have the World as a homogenous gloup.  Doesn't sound like much fun.

My essential point is you're against religion when really what you're against are certain aspects of human nature.  Even if  you could take away religion and they would still reside.
When the truth offends we lie and lie until we can longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is repaid

Matt2112

And we're off again.  :)  Disclaimer to all for reference: It's Nothing Personal!  And if it seems that way, call me on it.

So...

Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 14:54:07 pm
So you be happy to eradicate differences in culture and have the World as a homogenous gloup.  Doesn't sound like much fun.


Doesn't follow: the eradication of religious belief doesn't preclude diverse cultures.

QuoteMy essential point is you're against religion when really what you're against are certain aspects of human nature.


But is every single aspect of human nature - by definition - a "good thing"?  For instance, it's human nature to have as many offspring as possible.  Yet this "basic instinct" is, almost unanimously, considered enormously detrimental (for obvious reasons).
The keys to happiness

Andrew_Haldane

May 01, 2012, 15:24:14 pm #5 Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 15:32:44 pm by Bisto
Oh, this again............pfffft. sorry I've got too much of my own boring/pointless shit to think/talk/worry about

döm

Quote from: Matt2112 on May 01, 2012, 15:16:40 pm
And we're off again.  :)  Disclaimer to all for reference: It's Nothing Personal!  And if it seems that way, call me on it.

So...

Doesn't follow: the eradication of religious belief doesn't preclude diverse cultures.

But is every single aspect of human nature - by definition - a "good thing"?  For instance, it's human nature to have as many offspring as possible.  Yet this "basic instinct" is, almost unanimously, considered enormously detrimental (for obvious reasons).



I'm not even sure why I'm getting into these debates.  I'm not particularly religious I just seem to react when anyone knocks it.  I suppose I'm anti-athiest more than anything..  Again though you're knocking religion when the problem is human nature.  I realise by happening to bring up "offspring" you're trying to steer it in a particular direction and I don't want to get into a position where I'm forced  to defend the indefensible.  I'm certainly not saying that religion does no harm.  I do believe that it's no more harmful than any other facet of society and absolutley zero problems will be solved by its removal.
When the truth offends we lie and lie until we can longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is repaid

Matt2112

Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 15:32:12 pmAgain though you're knocking religion when the problem is human nature.


Then anything goes, it seems to me.  Homicide is also a part of human nature.  Altruism is also a part of human nature.  Yet we can't knock the former or praise the latter?   

Feudalsim is human nature.  Creating order to specifically avoid feudalism is human nature.

Seems to me that an all-encompassing definition of "human nature" is hard to pin down in the first place, let alone cite it as a problem.

QuoteI do believe that it's no more harmful than any other facet of society and absolutley zero problems will be solved by its removal.


Then (as a thought experiment) if your country of residence suddenly became a Saudi Arabian-style theocracy from tomorrow for 6 months, and then reverted to a secular democracy, you wouldn't notice any difference?
The keys to happiness

döm

Quote from: Matt2112 on May 01, 2012, 16:13:12 pm
Then anything goes, it seems to me.  Homicide is also a part of human nature.  Altruism is also a part of human nature.  Yet we can't knock the former or praise the latter?   

Feudalsim is human nature.  Creating order to specifically avoid feudalism is human nature.

Seems to me that an all-encompassing definition of "human nature" is hard to pin down in the first place, let alone cite it as a problem.

Then (as a thought experiment) if your country of residence suddenly became a Saudi Arabian-style theocracy from tomorrow for 6 months, and then reverted to a secular democracy, you wouldn't notice any difference?


Who says we can't knock religion ?   That's certainly not been my line of reasoning.  I'm against its eradication but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.  The Catholic church needs to evolve and I'm sure many other religions are the same.

As to Saudi Arabia - where does the religion end and where does local culture begin.  The 2 are inextricably linked it seems to me
When the truth offends we lie and lie until we can longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is repaid

Andy42g

Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 15:32:12 pm
I'm not even sure why I'm getting into these debates. 

Well - you did start it in the other thread.  :)
Why isn't there a sarcasm font?

döm

Quote from: Andy42g on May 01, 2012, 16:21:40 pm
Well - you did start it in the other thread.  :)


I reacted; I certainly didn't start.  I seem to have a convulsive reaction to atheism that I don't seem to be able to control.  I think I do it because someone has to.  Otherwise T-N-M-S  would become synonomous with atheism.
When the truth offends we lie and lie until we can longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is repaid

Matt2112

Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 16:21:12 pm
Who says we can't knock religion ?   That's certainly not been my line of reasoning.  I'm against its eradication but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.  The Catholic church needs to evolve and I'm sure many other religions are the same.


Interesting: so these eternal, infallible (and mutually exclusive and mutually blasphemous) dogmas should be "improved"?  Toward what, exactly?  Modern secular outlooks based on reason and evidence?  Then why have them at all?

QuoteAs to Saudi Arabia - where does the religion end and where does local culture begin.  The 2 are inextricably linked it seems to me


Well....exactly. :)
The keys to happiness

Andy42g

Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 16:26:36 pm
I reacted; I certainly didn't start.  I seem to have a convulsive reaction to atheism that I don't seem to be able to control. 

:D ... and now look what you started.

QuoteI think I do it because someone has to.  Otherwise T-N-M-S  would become synonomous with atheism.

Think of it as being synonymous with critical thinking.  It's a good thing :)
But then again we do have Zoony.  ::) And Jonners.  :o
Why isn't there a sarcasm font?

Andy42g

Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 16:21:12 pm
Who says we can't knock religion ?   That's certainly not been my line of reasoning.  I'm against its eradication but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.  The Catholic church needs to evolve and I'm sure many other religions are the same.

As Matt says - how do you evolve as a religion other than by becoming less 'religious'?

Quote
As to Saudi Arabia - where does the religion end and where does local culture begin.  The 2 are inextricably linked it seems to me

But the culture is born out of it's religion. They use a 'get out of jail' card and blame their middle aged misogynous nature on "culture" when of course it's root is in it's religion.
Why isn't there a sarcasm font?

Matt2112

Quote from: dom on May 01, 2012, 16:26:36 pm
I reacted; I certainly didn't start.  I seem to have a convulsive reaction to atheism that I don't seem to be able to control.  I think I do it because someone has to.  Otherwise T-N-M-S  would become synonomous with atheism.


I don't think you need worry - there can't be that many threads condoning atheism and dismantling theism!  It's the rabid Old Rush-and-nothing-else proponents folk should be wary of...  ;)
The keys to happiness