Can someone please explain...

Started by 34Poolboy, May 22, 2008, 16:37:47 pm

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Prince By-Tor

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I second that.


I third it!! :)

Prince By-Tor

QuoteNo I want an answer as to how Slim's tory party farce of a manifesto called the 'conversatives' would fix the social problems within the UK?

Because according to good old maggie, 'Society doesn't exist' and I don't care if it was taken out of context. It was meant to be a dig at the working classes.

No I don't think we should rely on the government to hold our hands or correct us in social etiquette. I do however, believe that booze should be a very expensive luxury and if you smack someone about a bit you should be thrown into a prison.*

*When I say prison by the way, I mean the types they have in Thailand where there are no human rights, because if you commit a crime in my opinion you lose all rights to belong to a civil society.


Not so much having a go at Slim here, as he's not the only conservative follower in the world, but I too would love to know how they are going to turn it around. :D

Bec, you're a girl after my own heart. What you say is exactly what I think. We are way to easy on criminals in this country. I can't pretend to know what to do to change it exactly, but I certainly think we should be a lot tougher like other countries.

Prince By-Tor

May 24, 2008, 21:29:07 pm #32 Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 21:30:29 pm by Prince_By_Tor
QuoteThere was hardly a hint of trouble over at the CL final between Chelsea and Man United fans, and i'm sure the main reason is that they'd have known what they would have got from the police had they stepped out of line. Until the police are given the same powers in this country, i can't see things improving.


Rob, you are so right. If anyone from either teams fans had started anything, the Russian police/army would have finished it. No way would they have stood for any violence etc. ::) ;D

I think its fair to say that we need to be a bit like that - but not just with football hooligans! ;D

Breesey

May 25, 2008, 08:23:34 am #33 Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 08:24:45 am by steve_breese
QuoteIt is indeed a British problem.
Whenever I go abroad to anywhere in Europe I don't seem to see groups of whiny voiced toerags hanging about outside of shops harrasing innocent folk trying to go about their own business.
The problems for me involve bad parenting and bloody awful policing.
Or at least the lack of interest the police have in dealing with problems, partly knowing that the little bastards can laugh in their faces knowing the law can do nothing to really stop them.
As they grow out of teenage years so many are just hardened to doing wrong and generally trying to prove how "hard" they are they end up doing the stuff mentioned on this thread.
I would say that other countries don't seem to be as bad as ours when it comes to anti-social behaviour, and I am sure their kids are playing the same computer games/watching same movies/listening to similar music as here yet they don't seem to have as BIG a problem.
Too many parents have abdicated responsiblity and so has government.


Of course the grass is always greener...
The continent is certainly not the land of milk and honey you make it out to be. Germany has only this month had a serious riot problem in Hamburg. That country's street violence increased at a serious rate in the 90's.
As has been said, with more coverage and easier access to the coverage here now it is possible to hear about a lot more of this kind of thing. By the same token, when visiting another country you are there for a brief time and probably don't spend too much time on the news so don't hear about it.
As far as seeing 'groups of toerags outside shops' goes. I very rarely do and the one time that I have felt hassled in this sort of way was in Luxembourg.
Brought to you by P, F, M !

Slim

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Why did I know that was coming.

I`m sorry but don`t you realise how lame it is to blame the government when it suits for the actions of these individuals?


So sorry, but do you really not have the first clue how feeble it is to pretend that the government is not responsible for the maintenance of law and order?

Does the sound bite "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" really leave you scratching your head in helpless confusion?

Slim

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Not so much having a go at Slim here, as he's not the only conservative follower in the world, but I too would love to know how they are going to turn it around. :D


Well, you're at least asking the right question. It is going to take an awful lot of turning around, after the last 11 years or so. I'm not actually certain that it can be fixed, at this stage.

What I can say without fear of credible contradiction though, is that the party least qualified to address this problem is the party that has presided over this disaster for the last decade. I wouldn't vote for NuLabour to attempt to maintain law & order in this country any more than I would invite Ian Brady to run a nursery.

DaveC

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So sorry, but do you really not have the first clue how feeble it is to pretend that the government is not responsible for the maintenance of law and order?



That is entirely different to holding any govt. responsible for the actions of individuals though.
DaveC

TerrBerr

May 26, 2008, 21:31:20 pm #37 Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 21:36:25 pm by TerrBerr
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So sorry, but do you really not have the first clue how feeble it is to pretend that the government is not responsible for the maintenance of law and order?

Does the sound bite "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" really leave you scratching your head in helpless confusion?



*yawn* Sorry, do you know how feeble it is to ignore someone else's valid point just so that you can harp on your own tired, worn-out diatribes against the current government? Let me refresh your memory:


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FFS. Change the record!

Look at the date when I had my run-in with the knuckle-draggers. It was 1988. Your beloved Tories were still in power.


Address that adequately and you might gain some credibility here.

To me you're a Captain, but to a Captain, you're no Captain!

sjsbrfc

May 26, 2008, 21:35:13 pm #38 Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 21:36:16 pm by sjsbrfc
So there was no street crime at all between 1979 and 1997?


From first to last. The peak is never passed. Something always fires the light that gets in your eyes

Slim

May 26, 2008, 21:41:34 pm #39 Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 11:35:41 am by Slim
QuoteSo there was no street crime at all between 1979 and 1997?


So provided that the present government hasn't actually invented serious crime, everything must be alright!

My contention is that a degree of social corrosion has taken place which has exacerbated the causes of crime, and that the government has not done enough to address this as a symptom either.

Dixkot

Quoteand bloody awful policing........................Or at least the lack of interest the police have in dealing with problems


Tommy, you obviously don't realise it, but you couldn't be further from the truth.





döm

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*When I say prison by the way, I mean the types they have in Thailand where there are no human rights, because if you commit a crime in my opinion you lose all rights to belong to a civil society.


I think prisons like that are a crime and have no place in a tolerant, decent society.

Surely society has a role in showing standards of behaviour and that includes even treating those seemingly  less deserving with some decency.

Otherwise society stoops to the level of the criminal and even makes their behaviour acceptable
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

Dixkot



And I'm with Slim on this one politically.

Labour have always made the right noises in relation to Law & Order, but have never delivered.  Their treatment of the police service in particular recently has been a disgrace, leading to the federated ranks voting in favour of industrial action.  The right to strike vote was just narrowly beaten.  This is something that NO-ONE wants.  The cause.  The Labour Government.

Bring back Margaret Thatcher & William Whitelaw.


34Poolboy

May 26, 2008, 21:55:32 pm #43 Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 21:57:43 pm by 34Poolboy
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So sorry, but do you really not have the first clue how feeble it is to pretend that the government is not responsible for the maintenance of law and order?

Does the sound bite "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" really leave you scratching your head in helpless confusion?


Of course I know they are responsible but I also know they are not solely responsible. It is also down to the individual to exercise restraint, can YOU understand that?

No it doesn`t leave me scratching my head, allow me a modicum of intelligence, I haven`t questioned yours!

Slim

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Of course I know they are responsible but I also know they are not solely responsible. It is also down to the individual to exercise restraint, can YOU understand that?


Of course it is, I agree.

So my position is that, while the individual is ultimately responsible for the crimes they commit, government is also responsible to a degree. I see a level of social corrosion in this country that is unprecedented which has contributed greatly to an overall lack of respect which expresses itself in violent crime at worst. While its origins lay in the foundation of the welfare state following the most recent World War in my view, the current government has exacerbated this.

The present government clearly accepted responsibility for more than the mere maintenance of law and order when it came to power promising to be "tough on the causes of crime". The current situation suggests that it was an unwise choice in this respect then, and I think that a different standard of political leadership than we have at present is required.

QuoteNo it doesn`t leave me scratching my head, allow me a modicum of intelligence, I haven`t questioned yours!


I apologise for that; I don't like my opinion to be described as 'lame' and tend to react badly to it.