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Signals => General Chat - English => Topic started by: Slim on May 29, 2019, 15:23:15 pm

Title: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on May 29, 2019, 15:23:15 pm
Yep, it's the thread you've been waiting for - and once again the Tory Party will be choosing your Prime Minister, so it's a fairly interesting topic, I feel. Plus, it will be something of a circular firing squad, so there's something in it for everyone.

Last time as you may remember, Andrea Leadsom dropped out of the last two, so the party at large didn't get to vote and it turned into a coronation. That didn't turn out too well.

That's unlikely to happen this time but I've let my membership lapse, so I won't get a vote either way.

I thought I'd offer a few thoughts on some of the current runners and riders. Interested in other people's thoughts, but it would be nice if you'd keep it good natured. And rational. Who am I kidding?!


Boris Johnson

Massively demonised by the Left like any other successful Conservative politician, a bit of a maverick and prone to the odd gaffe - but a very clever man. Definitely has the common touch and popular appeal. A very effective and popular London mayor.

I'm not 100% convinced that he wouldn't cock up a General Election campaign by stumbling in a confrontational interview, or falling foul of another gaffe. But he has something of Winston Churchill about him - unafraid to be himself, will always speak his mind, won't take any crap from the EU or their quislings and useful idiots over here.

If he gets into the last two - he will win. But will he? He's considerably less popular with the parliamentary party than with the grass roots membership.

Forget about the private prosecution stunt in the news today. It will do nothing but enhance his support among those of us who have grown tired of the antics of the Remainer Flat Earthers.

I'd be proud to call Boris Prime Minister, but actually - I'm not sure he'd be my first choice.


Jeremy Hunt

Another familiar, household name figure, the current Foreign Secretary of course and he served with distinction as Health Secretary in particular.

A year ago I would have said he had a decent shout. But he appears to have ruled out a WTO terms Brexit, and that is not a coherent position. There may be no way to deliver Brexit without it, and there's certainly no way to improve the deal we have at the moment. The membership won't wear that, and nor should they.

Voted to remain at the referendum, and surely the party has learned from its mistakes now.


Rory Stewart

Rory's real name is Roderick. Rod Stewart. I kid you not. From the party's unthinking left, and making a bit of a name for himself on social media as the preferred candidate of people who would never vote Tory. Has flatly ruled out a No Deal while claiming to be committed to deliver Brexit; a circle he would never be able to square.

No discernible charm, charisma or indeed electoral appeal.

Has already declared that he wouldn't serve under Boris, something I think Boris would gladly have told him a long time ago if the question had ever arisen. Rory is the living embodiment of the reason voters like myself deserted the party in huge numbers last Thursday. I suppose he just wants to raise his profile.


James Cleverly

I've followed James for year or two on Twitter and was surprised to see that he'd thrown his hat into the ring. James can claim to have supported Brexit since before the referendum, and is also on record of accepting that no deal is better than a bad deal. But then again, Theresa used to say that, didn't she?

I'm afraid James' chances are fatally tainted by his overt support as a government minister for Theresa's instrument of surrender.



To be continued
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on May 29, 2019, 15:35:29 pm
Initial thoughts - what an uninspiring bunch - 11 runners and riders in total so far I believe and not a thoroughbred between them.

I'm surprised that so many are going for it at a time when they will be tasked with exiting the UK from Europe and the aftermath.  Whoever takes it is likely to be humbled and humiliated by the process just like May.

It would be fun watching from the sidelines if it was just the Tories being harmed.  Unfortunately its the country as a whole that will suffer as well.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on May 29, 2019, 16:35:28 pm
Whoever wins is highly likely to be less of a danger to the country than Corbyn, so there's that I suppose.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on May 29, 2019, 21:00:41 pm
Esther McVey

Only a Member of Parliament since 2010 and lost her seat in 2015 before regaining George Osborne's old seat in 2017, but has already held a cabinet position.

A down-to-Earth, feisty woman with strong Brexit credentials - resigned as a government minister over the withdrawal arrangement and has been an active campaigner for the referendum result to be respected. Critically, she supports No Deal. I like her a great deal and would be happy enough if she wins; a prospect though that must be considered unlikely given her relative inexperience. Then again - her media experience could help her in the TV debates and interviews.

Her consistent opposition to same sex marriage troubles me. I can't really defend that, but she's entitled to an opinion that differs from mine and I don't see it as a showstopper. She wouldn't try to stuff the genie back into that particular bottle anyway.


Matt Hancock

Matt is another relatively inexperienced candidate and in my opinion a dull man who represents a sort of continuity from Theresa May, which (also in my opinion) is the absolute last thing that's needed. Has already made a point of speaking out against No Deal and crossed swords with Boris. Like Theresa he voted remain, he doesn't get it, and he won't get the top job either.

I will say that his initiative to tell Nicola Sturgeon she can't have another independence referendum next year has endeared me to him slightly, however.


Michael Gove

I like Michael a great deal. I do. He was the most successful education secretary for decades, and an effective, reforming justice minister. He gave a bravura performance in the Commons a few months ago, one of the most passionate and brilliant parliamentary speeches I can remember.

He was a prominent Leave campaigner during the referendum, of course.

But many party members will distrust him, for two reasons. Firstly, he memorably stabbed Boris in the back just before the last leadership campaign. And secondly, he chose to defend Theresa's deal, rather than disassociate himself from it.

The Left loathe him, which is testimony to his effectiveness as a front bencher. But I don't think he'll get the top job.

to be continued
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on May 29, 2019, 23:24:31 pm
Esther McVey supports ending the scandal of spending £14bn a year overseas and using some of the money on more important things at home - good on'er.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on May 30, 2019, 10:10:08 am
Quote from: DavidL on May 29, 2019, 23:24:31 pmEsther McVey supports ending the scandal of spending £14bn a year overseas and using some of the money on more important things at home - good on'er.
That would be ill advised when the UK is looking to forge new trade deals with the rest of the World to replace the ones that came with being a member of the EU.  The last thing it should do is appear insular surely? 
Is Esther really the best the Conservatives have on offer?  I don't think she's good enough for local politics never mind PM!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on May 30, 2019, 10:41:31 am
I don't think the overseas development aid budget makes a jot of difference to that. Business has no sentiment for that sort of thing.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on May 30, 2019, 12:46:06 pm
Not sure by what metric Hunt the homeopath and Gove the sociopath can be considered highly successful in their respective former positions purportedly in charge of health and education; the actual professionals on the ground must have missed that one.  Chronic Dunning-Kruger perhaps.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bisto on May 30, 2019, 13:13:18 pm
Quote from: Matt2112 on May 30, 2019, 12:46:06 pmNot sure by what metric Hunt the homeopath and Gove the sociopath can be considered highly successful in their respective former positions purportedly in charge of health and education; the actual professionals on the ground must have missed that one.  Chronic Dunning-Kruger perhaps.
I shall possibly regret asking this, but in what way is Gove a "Sociopath?"
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on May 30, 2019, 14:39:29 pm
Quote from: Bisto on May 30, 2019, 13:13:18 pmI shall possibly regret asking this, but in what way is Gove a "Sociopath?"
Maybe ask the hordes of ex-teaching professionals who quit under his tenure. :)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on May 30, 2019, 15:05:16 pm
Quote from: Slim on May 30, 2019, 10:41:31 amI don't think the overseas development aid budget makes a jot of difference to that. Business has no sentiment for that sort of thing.
It's all business - even aid, can make a big difference.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on May 30, 2019, 15:16:52 pm
i'm warming to Rody (Rod  ;D ) Stewart. Cutting through the no deal BS with aplomb...


https://twitter.com/i/status/1134020453897515008
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on May 30, 2019, 18:00:41 pm
All the political debate aside, I think Rory is a decent punt at 16/1.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on May 30, 2019, 19:18:25 pm
Quote from: Matt2112 on May 30, 2019, 18:00:41 pmAll the political debate aside, I think Rory is a decent punt at 16/1.
He of the riduiculously oversized shirt cuffs? Nah, he's got no faith in the UK . Probably not too important, but it looks like he's borrowed his suit for a court appearance.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Chris Quartly on May 30, 2019, 21:06:13 pm
Quote from: döm on May 30, 2019, 15:16:52 pmi'm warming to Rody (Rod  ;D ) Stewart. Cutting through the no deal BS with aplomb...


https://twitter.com/i/status/1134020453897515008
Unfortunate facts like the ones he makes in his argument don't seem to pose much care to those who want no-deal...
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on May 31, 2019, 07:48:00 am
We now have a 12th Runner!!!
Mark Harper - former chief whip - famous for being a Minister in the Home Office and resigning as an immigration minister when it was found his cleaner didn't have permission to work in the UK.......so another one with a tainted history. An outside runner for sure and being a relatively junior candidate to the others in the race would expect him to fall at the first - but who knows in the current political landscape?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on May 31, 2019, 10:52:16 am
Quote from: Chris Quartly on May 30, 2019, 21:06:13 pmUnfortunate facts like the ones he makes in his argument don't seem to pose much care to those who want no-deal...

The simple fact that ruling out no deal won't deliver Brexit is a rather more pertinent fact, I think.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on May 31, 2019, 10:54:07 am
Quote from: Matt2112 on May 30, 2019, 14:39:29 pmMaybe ask the hordes of ex-teaching professionals who quit under his tenure. :)

Could we ask you instead, Matt? I don't actually know any of those ex teachers myself.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Chris Quartly on May 31, 2019, 16:44:52 pm
Quote from: Slim on May 31, 2019, 10:52:16 amThe simple fact that ruling out no deal won't deliver Brexit is a rather more pertinent fact, I think.
The cutting one's nose off to spite one's face option is always an option.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on May 31, 2019, 23:25:37 pm
Quote from: Chris Quartly on May 31, 2019, 16:44:52 pmThe cutting one's nose off to spite one's face option is always an option.
On whether or not those that tell us that is the case can be believed, you may prefer speculation rather than evidence.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 01, 2019, 10:40:08 am
Quote from: Slim on May 31, 2019, 10:54:07 amCould we ask you instead, Matt? I don't actually know any of those ex teachers myself.
That would be to get ahead of ourselves. By what metrics were Hunt and Gove successful?

Meanwhile, we can add homophobia apologist McVey to the list who shouldn't be anywhere near power with her imbecilic "parents know best" comment.  If she has such contempt for the law which her own party has every intention of implementing then maybe she shouldn't be running for leadership but fcking off to a theocracy somewhere. :)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 02, 2019, 15:02:17 pm
Quote from: Chris Quartly on May 31, 2019, 16:44:52 pmThe cutting one's nose off to spite one's face option is always an option.

I don't think it is.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 02, 2019, 15:53:11 pm
Quote from: Matt2112 on June 01, 2019, 10:40:08 amThat would be to get ahead of ourselves.

Not really - you did tell us the he was a sociopath in unequivocal terms, so it was only reasonable to ask you why at this point, isn't it?

As for why he was a successful education secretary - I don't want to derail the thread too much, but it's rare for people in that job to bring about actual results, mostly because they aren't prepared to take on the education establishment and the teachers to help the kids. Critically, he made exams more rigorous and he got the Education Reform Act through the commons within 11 weeks of the 2010 General Election. He set higher standards for entry into the teaching profession and gave teachers more power over discipline. He set higher standards for failing schools as well, ensuring that they could be handed over to new management more easily.  

Back on topic - apparently Michael has told the rest of the Cabinet that he's prepared to delay Brexit until 2020. I don't think the party will wear that, and the Brexit Party's current fortunes in the polls:

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/brexpolljun02.png)

.. will tend to concentrate minds about that.

Interesting piece in the Independent though, in which John Rentoul argues that he'll beat Boris to the top job:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-michael-gove-next-conservative-leader-leadership-race-a8939516.html
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 03, 2019, 13:00:18 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 02, 2019, 15:53:11 pmBack on topic - apparently Michael has told the rest of the Cabinet that he's prepared to delay Brexit until 2020. I don't think the party will wear that, and the Brexit Party's current fortunes in the polls:

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/brexpolljun02.png)


In reality that is probably not a bad suggestion if he is going to try and re-negotiate a deal with the EU - assuming he wins the leadership contest of course.
Between now and the end of October there is very little time to push through anything that isn't already on the table - which is No Deal, The May Deal which has been rejected many times over and surely would not be championed by the new leader and of course not leaving at all.
If Gove does not want a No deal but a new negotiated deal with the EU then really the leave date has to be postponed.
The other issue is though will the EU allow this? if they don't his next option may be to revoke article 50, then, when he sees fit, present it again to Europe and start from square 1 again.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 03, 2019, 15:47:51 pm
I thought the EU were fairly clear in advising they wont do another deal other than the one negotiated by May.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 03, 2019, 21:05:21 pm
Quote from: Nick on June 03, 2019, 15:47:51 pmI thought the EU were fairly clear in advising they wont do another deal other than the one negotiated by May.
Yes the EU team put together for the withdrawal agreement has been disbanded I understand
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 04, 2019, 10:00:02 am
Quote from: The Letter R on June 03, 2019, 13:00:18 pmIn reality that is probably not a bad suggestion if he is going to try and re-negotiate a deal with the EU - assuming he wins the leadership contest of course.

Between now and the end of October there is very little time to push through anything that isn't already on the table - which is No Deal, The May Deal which has been rejected many times over and surely would not be championed by the new leader and of course not leaving at all.

If Gove does not want a No deal but a new negotiated deal with the EU then really the leave date has to be postponed.
The other issue is though will the EU allow this? if they don't his next option may be to revoke article 50, then, when he sees fit, present it again to Europe and start from square 1 again.

The party won't wear another extension, so all the above is moot. Revoking article 50 is the nuclear button; just not an option for a Conservative leader.

It's curious that the EU are so inflexible on the existing "deal", isn't it? Given that it was never actually agreed, and as you observe, is very unlikely to be. You have to wonder if they're just trying to manouevre us into revoking - or in other words, overturning our democracy, which is of course a wilfully hostile act. These loathsome people are quite deliberately adopting a stance as our enemies, not the "partners" some would have you believe.

Anyway - while no deal may be unpalatable to some, if the EU continues with its intransigence then it's undoubtedly the only viable option. Our anti-democratic Parliament and a clearly remain-biased Speaker might just find a way to force a revocation of article 50 instead, but if they do, the lid will come off a very toxic and explosive can of worms, I think.

Anyway - concerning the matter at hand, I seriously doubt the Conservative Party will accept anyone contemplating an extension of our membership of that miserable institution as leader.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 04, 2019, 12:56:15 pm
Quote from: Slim on May 29, 2019, 15:23:15 pmI've followed James for year or two on Twitter and was surprised to see that he'd thrown his hat into the ring. James can claim to have supported Brexit since before the referendum, and is also on record of accepting that no deal is better than a bad deal. But then again, Theresa used to say that, didn't she?

I'm afraid James' chances are fatally tainted by his overt support as a government minister for Theresa's instrument of surrender.


James has just pulled out of the contest, saying that the party is not yet prepared to "skip a generation". He tweeted that he was "unlikely to get the numbers I needed to progress to the final two candidates" which I'm sure is true for a number of the other hopefuls, as well.

Speaking of which:


Sam Gyimah

Actually running for leadership of the party on a second referendum ticket, which I find ethically repellent personally. And since invoking the spectre of a loser's vote was the final, toxic straw that had the men in grey suits summoning Theresa for a quiet word, quite a perverse approach for someone hoping to succeed her.

But I get the idea that Sam just wants to broaden the argument a bit. No-one actually believes he has a chance of winning.

Which come to think of it was the exact reason that Corbyn was nominated to run in the Labour leadership contest of 2015, so you never know!

I recall an interview with Sam by Clive Myrie on News 24 in 2016 in which he came across really unnecessarily grumpy and hostile, so perhaps not that media savvy.

Anyway - can't help thinking he'd be more at home in the Lib Dims.


Sajid Javid

It's a lovely idea, isn't it? The son of an immigrant bus driver rising through the ranks of the Tory Party, supposedly a bastion of privilege where the right school tie counts for everything, to become Prime Minister?

My concerns about Sajid are twofold: firstly I'm troubled by his illiberal response to the Shamima Begum affair. And secondly, although he's making the right noises about No Deal now, he voted to remain and I think might well give undue emphasis, and concede too much power, to our enemies at the EU.

He was not one of those who resigned from government on principle when Theresa's surrender plan unfolded, and he's tainted by that, I think.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 04, 2019, 13:12:14 pm
I suspect a few of the no-hopers who have thrown their hat in the ring will be getting a quiet word in their ear to pull out and perhaps support candidate X or Y and you may get a decent job in the cabinet if they get in......
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on June 04, 2019, 14:42:22 pm
I've lost count....are we now down to 12? Regulation size for a jury or a large box of eggs...

You can decide which is more appropriate ;D
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 04, 2019, 15:35:32 pm
Kit Malthouse

Author of a compromise Brexit plan that was backed by several ministers, including prominent Brexiteers. Kit is pretty much unheard of outside the Westminster bubble. Only became an MP in 2015, though that was preceded by a long career in local government.

Solid Brexit credentials, voted to Leave in 2016. Wrote a very eloquent and thoughtful piece on the necessity of leaving the EU before the referendum. I like Kit but would assess his chances of success in this contest as very slim, if only because of his relative inexperience and lack of exposure.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 04, 2019, 17:57:18 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 04, 2019, 15:35:32 pmKit Malthouse

Author of a compromise Brexit plan that was backed by several ministers, including prominent Brexiteers. Kit is pretty much unheard of outside the Westminster bubble. Only became an MP in 2015, though that was preceded by a long career in local government.

Solid Brexit credentials, voted to Leave in 2016. Wrote a very eloquent and thoughtful piece on the necessity of leaving the EU before the referendum. I like Kit but would assess his chances of success in this contest as very slim, if only because of his relative inexperience and lack of exposure.
He's gone!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 04, 2019, 18:03:23 pm
Sam Gyimah's idea for a loser's vote is to include three choices:
No Deal
May's Deal
Remain

Just listened to an interview with him on 5Live. Was not pressed on the fact that it clearly splits the Leave vote. Perhaps he will add both Leave options together and then have a run-off for the winner if they beat Remain! Perhaps Remain have to win by a substantial margin(?). If remain wins by a narrow margin it may be best of three.
Clear as mud. I suspect he is a Remainer - no chance of winning.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 04, 2019, 20:42:21 pm
Yep, I heard the same interview. Fair's fair though, like he says - he is offering something different. I think I heard him mention that Dominic Grieve is running his campaign, which says a lot really. Dominic narrowly escaped being deselected by his local party a few weeks ago.

Meanwhile, one of the 2010 intake of Conservative MPs has already achieved her ambition of becoming party leader today. Congratulations, Anna!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48515505

Remarkably, Anna tweeted that the Tory party is heading for a "historic split" on the same day that six of her own party's eleven MPs decided to leave and become independents. Shame, because that party was a useful vehicle for binning remainer votes. Not many, but it all helps.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 05, 2019, 09:16:02 am
So: in advance of the official kick-off, the rules have been changed as follows:


Previously if I recall correctly, only the lowest-scoring candidate was eliminated in each round. I assume that's still true for the third and subsequent rounds, but the first two rounds should narrow the field quite a bit.

With 13 candidates (now 11) the process would have taken a long time, of course, so this makes sense and I'm sure it will still throw up the same two candidates to be decided by the membership.

There's a chance of course that one of the last two will drop out at that point, like Andrea did last time.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 05, 2019, 10:07:13 am
Rory Stewart, who I took at 18/1 before his odds were trimmed, has drifted out to 25/1 - bugger, not a good sign.  

Boris is a clear favourite at 11/10 and looks difficult to oppose, at least from a purely betting perspective.  That said, this is politics, and recent experience might behove us to expect the unexpected.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 05, 2019, 11:05:37 am
Quote from: Slim on June 02, 2019, 15:53:11 pmNot really - you did tell us the he was a sociopath in unequivocal terms, so it was only reasonable to ask you why at this point, isn't it?

Sloppy James, mixing tenses.  And maybe so, nothing stopping that happening; but it was/is also reasonable to expect things to be addressed in turn.  But whatever.  

QuoteAs for why he was a successful education secretary - I don't want to derail the thread too much, but it's rare for people in that job to bring about actual results, mostly because they aren't prepared to take on the education establishment and the teachers to help the kids. Critically, he made exams more rigorous and he got the Education Reform Act through the commons within 11 weeks of the 2010 General Election. He set higher standards for entry into the teaching profession and gave teachers more power over discipline. He set higher standards for failing schools as well, ensuring that they could be handed over to new management more easily.

Yes, he implemented radical reform swiftly and efficiently enough, which were ultimately so successful he wound up being demoted when the carnage manifesting itself was becoming clear, an inevitable result of his blinkered, ideological zeal.  Looking back, it turns out that actual results remained comparatively static; so all that painful reform for...nothing.  Surrounding himself exclusively with fellow like-minded public school old boys, putting on that disarming veneer in person to those State school professionals he was simultaneously screwing over with a flick of the pen back in the office; yes perhaps "sociopath" is hyperbole on my part I admit, but I've never had the anger of those directly affected by his conviction politics, blithe dismissal of those famously quoted experts and demonstrable lack of empathy, and given his record as Education Secretary the term seems substantially closer to the mark than "successful".

Anyway, he's second favourite at 4/1; seems a bit short that.[/quote]
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 05, 2019, 12:15:43 pm
He might be regarded by some as a compromise candidate but he won't represent the clean break that many in the party will seek, because of his loyalty to Theresa post-Chequers. I do think that he's one of the contenders though. I'd put him in fourth place, behind Johnson, Raab and Hunt. That won't necessarily be reflected in the MP voting rounds, though.

Quite fascinated to read your perspective, so thanks for sharing.

I'd say Gyimah and Harper are most likely to leave on the first round.

Perhaps Stewart, as well. Depends on how his fellow MPs approach the contest. Will some of them vote for a candidate who has no hope of acceptance by the wider party, just to make a point?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 06, 2019, 12:21:34 pm
I guess we should ask someone from the Murdoch family who they will support then there's a good chance of knowing the winner before the contest has begun.....can't find the cynical emoji.....
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 06, 2019, 18:44:31 pm
Mark Harper

A former chief whip and immigration minister. Possibly the least well-known candidate, probably best remembered for a lukewarm scandal five years ago involving his cleaner being in the country illegally. Like Javid, from a modest background. Seems to have been a fairly vanilla party loyalist his whole career. Voted to remain in the 2016 referendum, voted against Theresa's bill initially due to concerns about the backstop.

Does seem, to be fair, to respect the referendum result. Holds the default sane position that leaving with a deal is preferable, but leaving without one must be an option. Would assess his chances as rather slim.


Dominic Raab

Impeccable Brexit credentials: voted and campaigned for Leave. Replaced David Davis as Brexit secretary when Theresa unveiled her surrender plan last summer and interestingly, David is supporting him in this contest. Dominic resigned himself a few months later so I'd say his credibility is still intact. Understands the importance of leaving no later than October, deal or no deal.

Quite an assured media performer. Would make a good PM I feel. But I would have thought that Boris offers more to Dominic's potential voters, both in the parliamentary party and the wider party. If Boris were to drop out some reason, and he can be unpredictable of course - Dominic is in with a strong chance. Will be thrilled if either gets the top job.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 06, 2019, 19:24:18 pm
Interesting observations regarding    Dominic Raab, James; had a look at his odds and he's available at 28/1.  Looks value, particularly as Rory is slightly shorter and looks a less likely winner.  Agree that Boris needs to be taken out of the running somehow, but might have a nibble regardless. :)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 06, 2019, 23:58:33 pm
Pleased to see Dominic mooting the possibility of proroguing parliament - it may seem a desperate measure, but desperate times do call for them. Good to see that Savid Javid has come out against it; gives them something to argue about.

The dismal, repellent Gina Miller has also had her two penneth about it. Can't help thinking that DR has gained a bit of ground with this one. I believe the People's Remain Speaker of the House of Commons has also stuck his oar in as well. It's all good. The more illiberal self-serving anti-democrats he pisses off, the better.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 07, 2019, 00:04:51 am
And here's a twist! It seems Theresa doesn't think she's quite unpopular enough with the party yet, so she's thinking of staying on as Prime Minister for a bit, if she doesn't quite approve of the new leader.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1137172/Theresa-may-resign-brexit-deal-news-conservative-leadership-contest

Or: the Express has spun a bit of nothing into a clickbait headline. Take your pick.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 07, 2019, 00:49:59 am
Quote from: Slim on June 06, 2019, 23:58:33 pmPleased to see Dominic mooting the possibility of proroguing parliament - it may seem a desperate measure, but desperate times do call for them. Good to see that Savid Javid has come out against it; gives them something to argue about.


Raab was my preferred candidate but now I'm less convinced he's the man. Comedian Matt Forde chaired the private hustings for one group of candidates, including Raab, and apparently he had a bit of a nightmare. Got himself in a bit of a mess when quizzed about gender equality. He's often struggled to appear composed and I think he may not be made of the right stuff. Gove and Hunt are pros at the media stuff.
On the other hand, I've just read an article by The Spectator's Katy Balls. She chaired the other hustings and described how Javid reads Ayn Rand! Who knows, he may own a copy of 2112! Still wouldn't get my vote for the top job. In fact, I'm at a loss to choose any one from this poor selection. For entertainment, it would be the idiotic Boris, just to see what happens at the end of October. My bet is he's already thrown his own banana-skin on the floor.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 07, 2019, 14:50:15 pm
Boris suddenly odds-on everywhere, looks like he's being lumped on now.  Raab and Rory both drifting along with the rest of the market - except for Hunt (9/1) who is still attracting interest.

Keeping my powder dry as otherwise I haven't a clue what to do really.  ;)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 07, 2019, 14:53:19 pm
Quote from: Matt2112 on June 07, 2019, 14:50:15 pmBoris suddenly odds-on everywhere, looks like he's being lumped on now.  Raab and Rory both drifting along with the rest of the market - except for Hunt (9/1) who is still attracting interest.

Keeping my powder dry as otherwise I haven't a clue what to do really.  ;)
A bit like the Tory party at the moment !!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 07, 2019, 15:54:22 pm
;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 07, 2019, 18:50:47 pm
And the Labour Party, without a doubt. I couldn't help but laugh when Corbyn described his "incredible victory" in Peterborough as a huge vindication for Labour's position. You'd think he'd just won a General Election.

Reality check: Labour got a bit more than 48% of the votes in that constituency at the last election, and they still lost nationally. Yesterday they managed slightly less than 31%. Slightly more than 17% of the overall vote deserted them. Yet they are the main opposition to a party of government in mid-term that is demonstrably struggling to maintain confidence and support.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 07, 2019, 23:17:09 pm
Quote from: Slim on May 29, 2019, 15:23:15 pmForget about the private prosecution stunt in the news today. It will do nothing but enhance his support among those of us who have grown tired of the antics of the Remainer Flat Earthers.

And as expected, it's been thrown out without Boris ever having to appear in court. The dickhead who organised this stunt has wasted £300,000 of small-minded remoaner money donated via crowd-funding on this and trashed his own reputation. Good times.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 08, 2019, 09:26:17 am
Quote from: Slim on June 07, 2019, 23:17:09 pmAnd as expected, it's been thrown out without Boris ever having to appear in court. The dickhead who organised this stunt has wasted £300,000 of small-minded remoaner money donated via crowd-funding on this and trashed his own reputation. Good times.
It would be nice to think some of that money came from Gina Miller!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 08, 2019, 10:22:28 am
Michael Gove has owned up to doing coke when working as a journalist, which I find commendably honest - or perhaps he just wants to exorcise that ghost before it comes back to haunt him in the top job.

Will lose him a few votes if he makes it to the final ballot.

Received wisdom has it that the two candidates to be offered to the wider party will be a remainer and a Brexiteer. If that's the case, I'm struggling to think who the remainer might be. Rory possibly.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 08, 2019, 11:43:38 am
Wonder if Boris was as much of a junkie as his colleagues.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 08, 2019, 12:00:15 pm
I thought doing recreational drugs was part of a journalist's person specification.  :)

Anyway, total non-issue, or should be.  Another manifestation of the current tiresome phenomenon of long-ago peccadilloes being dredged up for lazy smears.

Gove is wise to say he "deeply regrets" it; whether he genuinely does or not doesn't matter - I actually don't think it's anything to be ashamed of.

Either way, it shouldn't affect his leadership candidacy and it should all soon blow over. ("Blow" over; no? Yes? Please yourselves  :) )

Can't quite believe I find myself defending the chap, by the way, but there it is.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 08, 2019, 13:28:00 pm
To be honest I did coke a couple of times in the '90s, maybe not as often as Michael. I haven't touched it or any other recreational substance since 2001, excluding alcohol. It made not the slightest difference to my ability to do my job, then or now. Alcohol has, a few times.

But - it is of course against the law and that's the problem, I think, for a politician. Especially one aspiring to be a Prime Minister. I can understand the raised eyebrows, especially given that he's already been a justice minister.

Heard that Oliver Letwin is supporting him in the leadership contest which will not do his chances in the wider party vote, hereafter known as the Big Ballot, any good.

If I still had a vote I'd vote for Boris I think, assuming his parliamentary colleagues let him get that far. I prefer Raab in some ways but Boris does have that transcendent Heineken quality of appealing to people who aren't usually Tory voters.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 08, 2019, 18:57:12 pm
Leadsome - weed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andrea-leadsom-cannabis-weed-drugs-michael-gove-cocaine-tory-leadership-a8950276.html
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 08, 2019, 19:03:04 pm
Rory Stewart- opium in Iran, this sounds a bit more classy and Empire like.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Richard_2112 on June 08, 2019, 21:56:50 pm
The resounding hypocrisy of Michael Gove deeming it perfectly okay for him to have taken a class A drug on several occasions, but when he was education secretary he passed a code of conduct that included disqualification for teachers convicted of possessing class A drugs!

So snorting coke makes you unfit to teach, but fine to run the education system, the justice department, the environment department, and possibly lead the country!?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 08, 2019, 23:44:04 pm
You aren't quite drawing a fair comparison, there. It's already the case that anyone running the education system or any other government department will be disqualified permanently if found to be in possession of class A drugs. It's highly unlikely that he was ever in possession of cocaine while justice secretary.

I don't think it was the case that people who owned up to using cocaine years earlier were disqualified from teaching. Just people using it while in the job. Not sure about that one actually. If it was the case then yes it's an interesting one, but I doubt that Michael Gove was responsible for that rule.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 09, 2019, 08:33:42 am
Quote from: Slim on June 08, 2019, 23:44:04 pmYou aren't quite drawing a fair comparison, there. It's already the case that anyone running the education system or any other government department will be disqualified permanently if found to be in possession of class A drugs. It's highly unlikely that he was ever in possession of cocaine while justice secretary.

I don't think it was the case that people who owned up to using cocaine years earlier were disqualified from teaching. Just people using it while in the job. Not sure about that one actually. If it was the case then yes it's an interesting one, but I doubt that Michael Gove was responsible for that rule.
There would be, quite rightly in my opinion, a different view taken on those that snort a line or two in private and those that are using (wherever) that have a huge influence over children whilst in their care.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 09, 2019, 16:35:21 pm
In any case - whatever Michael's chances were, and I don't think they were strong to be fair, I think they've been scuppered by this. Quite a lot of discussion about it in the media today, and Andrew Marr entertainingly asked him "should you have gone to prison?" this morning.

I'm not sure that everyone who gets caught in possession of personal-use quantities of cocaine goes to prison, but it is an option.

Most of the other candidates have, wisely I think, steered clear of scoring points off this but Savid Javid had a go. I'm starting to suspect that he has that draconian / paternalistic / moralistic tendency that some Conservatives have. I hope he doesn't win.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 10, 2019, 08:46:02 am
Apparently Michael wrote a piece in the late '90s criticising "middle class professionals" who took drugs. Awkward. Baroness Warsi has had a go at his supposed "hypocrisy of the highest order" and it's hard to disagree. I don't think he'll ever get one of the highest offices of state now.

Nonetheless I suspect he will be one of the candidates who has the necessary 8 supporters among his fellow MPs at 5pm today unless he throws in the towel before then.

The left wing spin on his flirtation with class A drugs is obvious nonsense, but probably effective to a degree. This morning on 5 Live I heard that he'd got away with it because he was white and middle class, whereas a young black man would have been imprisoned. Er - no. He got away with it because he wasn't caught.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 10, 2019, 13:19:17 pm
Gove was 4/1 about this time last week - out to 20s now; unsurprising given the media backlash.

Now that official declarations are out it appears in the market that, other than Boris still being a strong favourite (4/6), Hunt (4/1), Leadsom (8/1) Javid (20/1), Stewart (28/1) and Raab (33/1) are attracting support.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 10, 2019, 14:54:19 pm
Some are saying that it looks like Hunt / Boris in the Big Ballot. I would assess Savid's chances as higher than Andrea's. In fact I won't be surprised if Andrea is out of contention in a couple of hours.

Others likely to fall at the first hurdle, without the requisite 8 supporters: Esther, Sam Gyimah, Mark Harper. Maybe Matt Hancock, I'd like to think so.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 10, 2019, 17:37:23 pm
Sam has dropped out; not enough support he says. BTW apparently you can nominate yourself so you need the support of 7 other MPs, not 8 as I claimed earlier.

And that makes sense, because - imagine if at the next election, only 1 Conservative MP was returned. He or she wouldn't be able to run for party leader!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 10, 2019, 18:04:25 pm
Officially running (valid nominations) are:

Michael Gove
Matt Hancock
Mark Harper
Jeremy Hunt
Sajid Javid
Boris Johnson
Andrea Leadsom
Esther McVey
Dominic Raab
Rory Stewart

and apparently all have had 7 backers, surprised by that. Results from first hustings on Thursday.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 10, 2019, 19:17:51 pm
Rory Stewart - Unfortunately, he is by far the most sensible, human & bloody normal candidate amongst them all - which instantly rules him out. A shame, i quite like him.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 10, 2019, 20:14:19 pm
I've taken the 25/1 available on Raab.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 10, 2019, 22:37:29 pm
Quote from: Nick on June 10, 2019, 19:17:51 pmRory Stewart - Unfortunately, he is by far the most sensible, human & bloody normal candidate amongst them all - which instantly rules him out. A shame, i quite like him.

I would say he's pretty much the least in all those categories, especially "sensible" and it would be an act of monumental collective stupidity for the party to elect him as leader. Frankly it reflects badly on the parliamentary party that he's managed 7 supporters among his fellow MPs.

He's already got a white flag out ready for the EU - he's quite openly said he wouldn't countenance a clean WTO Brexit, which means there is nothing he can do to improve their negotiating position, nothing he can do to improve Theresa's "deal" so he would simply have to surrender to them and betray the referendum, and the British people.

He would be the facilitator for the most obscene political act of treachery in living memory. And on top of that he would utterly obliterate his party's hopes of electoral success for at least a generation. Millions, myself certainly included, would prefer to vote for the Brexit Party than for a party led by a self-loathing British useful idiot of our enemies at the EU.

It's these considerations - and they're fairly important ones, I feel - that rule him out.

You can apply all of the above to Matt Hancock as well, but at least he seems a bit less creepy and weird than Rory.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 11, 2019, 13:38:11 pm
Best of a bad bunch for me would be Jeremy Hunt - actually comes across as the most "Statesmanlike" if that means anything these days......probably not the highest on public popularity which is something the Conservatives need to consider when choosing the final candidate ( but which one is?? ).
I think he is the most credible and has a sense of realism about him, not just bluster, boasts and soundbites many of the other candidates have.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 11, 2019, 19:31:52 pm
Is Boris in hiding?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 11, 2019, 19:34:42 pm
Quote from: The Letter R on June 11, 2019, 13:38:11 pmBest of a bad bunch for me would be Jeremy Hunt - actually comes across as the most "Statesmanlike" if that means anything these days......probably not the highest on public popularity which is something the Conservatives need to consider when choosing the final candidate ( but which one is?? ).
I think he is the most credible and has a sense of realism about him, not just bluster, boasts and soundbites many of the other candidates have.
Broadly agree; as long as he doesn't allow his parlous grasp of medical science to encroach on public policy too much, he might well be the lesser of several evils.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 11, 2019, 19:39:59 pm
Quote from: Nick on June 11, 2019, 19:31:52 pmIs Boris in hiding?
Oh I do hope so. ;)  Still odds on though.  I'm considering an insurance bet; it's very difficult to see past him at the moment.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 11, 2019, 19:52:04 pm
Rory getting plenty of good press today.  https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=693045691152663&_rdr
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on June 11, 2019, 22:18:32 pm
Quote from: The Letter R on June 11, 2019, 13:38:11 pmBest of a bad bunch for me would be Jeremy Hunt - actually comes across as the most "Statesmanlike" if that means anything these days......probably not the highest on public popularity which is something the Conservatives need to consider when choosing the final candidate ( but which one is?? ).
I think he is the most credible and has a sense of realism about him, not just bluster, boasts and soundbites many of the other candidates have.
Still a bit of a "god botherer"....

I know someone who worked for him when he was at Culture. Not as "nice" as he seems on the surface apparently, but then none of them are...
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 12, 2019, 00:09:03 am
Quote from: The Letter R on June 11, 2019, 13:38:11 pmBest of a bad bunch for me would be Jeremy Hunt - actually comes across as the most "Statesmanlike" if that means anything these days......probably not the highest on public popularity which is something the Conservatives need to consider when choosing the final candidate ( but which one is?? ).

Well - according to a ComRes poll, the answer to that is pretty clear:

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/br_vot_int.jpg)
The numbers are a projection of seats in the House of Commons. Perhaps the most remarkable of these projections is not the large Conservative majority with Boris at the helm - but the Brexit Party becoming the largest party in the House, with 252, should the party be idiotic enough to choose Rory Stewart as its leader.

I doubt these figures are wholly accurate, but they do clearly tell the broad story that most Conservative voters won't be Conservative voters any more if that should happen.


(http://truth.justdied.com/images/rento01.png)


(http://truth.justdied.com/images/rento02.png)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 12, 2019, 06:48:13 am
That's a bit worrying because I just don't believe in Boris. I think he'll be in real trouble come 31st October. Raab has quite a good showing in that poll - not sure why? I'm all for a 'no deal' following due preparations but just cannot see how it will be allowed to happen, whoever is advocating it.
The biggest player in the whole process is.....Nigel Farage.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 12, 2019, 07:49:59 am
Those poll results count for very little unless Boris calls a general election on day 1 of his term in office.

Otherwise the reality of a bufoon in charge like Johnson will completely alter people's opinions of him once he's in charge of the country.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 12, 2019, 08:14:34 am
Quote from: döm on June 12, 2019, 07:49:59 amThose poll results count for very little unless Boris calls a general election on day 1 of his term in office.

Otherwise the reality of a bufoon in charge like Johnson will completely alter people's opinions of him once he's in charge of the country.

Well I remember similar sentiments being expressed when he took over as Mayor of London, including in a thread here somewhere. And as usual, they were wrong.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 12, 2019, 13:36:34 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 12, 2019, 08:14:34 amWell I remember similar sentiments being expressed when he took over as Mayor of London, including in a thread here somewhere. And as usual, they were wrong.
Hmm, when he was foreign secretary his main aid said it was a full time job dealing and clearing up after his gaffes.  The man is a liability who gets by with his affable nature.  I think whoever gets leader this time will be handed  a deadly poisonous chalice and will only last a short time.  If it does happen to be Johnson, it will be even shorter, even if the poison spills onto his tie and misses his mouth.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 13, 2019, 09:10:06 am
Favourite headline from yesterday:

Whatever Michael Gove put up his nose, he's blown it now

Bravo, Allison Pearson in the Telegraph. Or sub-editor.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 13, 2019, 12:16:25 pm
Yasmin Alibhi Brown deals a serious blow to Boris' campaign:

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/yasbor.png)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 13, 2019, 13:15:51 pm
Johnson takes a commanding lead in the first round of votes.
Realistically based on the voting surely only Hunt and Gove are now serious contenders along with Boris.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 13, 2019, 13:36:29 pm
Yes, I think so.

I don't think anyone expected Boris to do quite so well. I didn't expect Dominic or Sajid to do quite so badly.

Boris Johnson : 114
Jeremy Hunt   :  43
Michael Gove  :  37
Dominic Raab  :  27
Sajid Javid   :  23
Matt Hancock  :  20
Rory Stewart  :  19

Eliminated are:

Andrea Leadsom : 11
Mark Harper    : 10
Esther McVey   :  9


Rory has just said that his campaign has "gathered momentum" on R4. There's nothing I could type really that could make that any funnier.

Assuming he doesn't lose any on the way, Boris just needs to pick up 60 votes from other candidates as they are eliminated to top the last parliamentary poll. But he doesn't even need to do that, he just needs to come second.

A BBC correspondent on R4 just now just commented that "only Boris can defeat Boris", and I think that's fair.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 13, 2019, 15:32:24 pm
I think dear old Rory has forgotten this is a Leadership race not the GBBO or something - when he said he was pleased not to have gone in the first round!!! ::) - he barely scrapped through - oh well - he'll be gone next round unless he walks before the vote, which would be a better idea I would have thought.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 13, 2019, 16:18:58 pm
Quote from: The Letter R on June 13, 2019, 15:32:24 pmI think dear old Rory has forgotten this is a Leadership race not the GBBO or something - when he said he was pleased not to have gone in the first round!!! ::) - he barely scrapped through - oh well - he'll be gone next round unless he walks before the vote, which would be a better idea I would have thought.
I don't think he (and many of the others) genuinely thought he/they were in with a chance of winning.

By entering the race I imagine they were hoping to increase their standing within the party and to get a chance of either getting on the cabinet table or getting a more senior place at the cabinet table.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 13, 2019, 16:41:45 pm
Quote from: döm on June 13, 2019, 16:18:58 pmI don't think he (and many of the others) genuinely thought he/they were in with a chance of winning.

By entering the race I imagine they were hoping to increase their standing within the party and to get a chance of either getting on the cabinet table or getting a more senior place at the cabinet table.
But Rory wisely said he won't serve under Bojo.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 13, 2019, 16:52:31 pm
Quote from: Nick on June 13, 2019, 16:41:45 pmBut Rory wisely said he won't serve under Bojo.
That's true but Rory probably believes, as i do, that his tenure as pm won't be for very long
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 13, 2019, 17:08:02 pm
It'll probably be the final nail in the Conservative party.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 13, 2019, 18:22:33 pm
Quote from: Nick on June 13, 2019, 16:41:45 pmBut Rory wisely said he won't serve under Bojo.

Rory doesn't really have a lot of choice in that matter. So yes, in a way, wise words.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 14, 2019, 11:08:50 am
Quote from: Slim on May 29, 2019, 21:00:41 pmMatt Hancock

Matt is another relatively inexperienced candidate and in my opinion a dull man who represents a sort of continuity from Theresa May, which (also in my opinion) is the absolute last thing that's needed. Has already made a point of speaking out against No Deal and crossed swords with Boris. Like Theresa he voted remain, he doesn't get it, and he won't get the top job either.

I will say that his initiative to tell Nicola Sturgeon she can't have another independence referendum next year has endeared me to him slightly, however.

Matt has decided to leave the process this morning, arguing that the party wasn't ready for a "fresh face". Actually it wasn't ready for more of the same proven failure.

Gives Rory a chance of going a bit further in the competition; he should pick up some of Matt's votes.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 14, 2019, 12:26:05 pm
Rory's price has come back in again to about what it was when I backed him - and interestingly he's suddenly third favourite ahead of Gove - but Boris is now 2/9, so his chances look unassailable.

Raab the rank outsider now at 50/1.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 14, 2019, 15:21:18 pm
Are Michael and Rory really both ahead of Jeremy Hunt in the bookies' estimation? That seems absurd.

Michael's only chance of stopping Boris is to stab him in the back like he did last time, but that would kill off his own chances as well. Not with his fellow MPs perhaps, but certainly with the wider party. Unless he was up against Rory in the final two of course, but that really is the stuff of fantasy. Or nightmares.

I'm reminded of this cartoon from 2016.

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/govestab.jpg)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 15, 2019, 09:27:44 am
Quote from: Slim on June 14, 2019, 15:21:18 pmAre Michael and Rory really both ahead of Jeremy Hunt in the bookies' estimation? That seems absurd.


No, no; Hunt is second at 14/1, but then has actually drifted markedly over the last couple of days.   Boris winning is virtually a done deal from looking at the betting market.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 15, 2019, 18:09:38 pm
Will be interested to see what happens to the odds after the BBC leadership debate on Tuesday. I would guess that Boris' lead might slightly diminish, if only because he's more vulnerable by virtue of his relatively colourful career.

I also don't think he's particularly confident in a confrontational format, a trait he shares with Theresa.

Interested to see that two of the candidates have had a go at Corbyn today, probably quite fairly. Won't do their own standing in the party any harm.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 16, 2019, 10:19:28 am
Esther's backing Boris, no surprises there.

And it was reported on Friday that following his decision to leave the process, Matt is "talking to all of the other candidates". I'm assuming that Matt expects vague assurances or perhaps some sort of career favour in order for his support. But I don't really see the 20 MPs who voted for him just conveniently falling into line; they'll just make their own choice.

Meanwhile - did you think that it was odd that C4 reported that the lesbian couple who were attacked on the tube were so emphatic in their view that Boris is unfit to be PM, in their laughable "news exclusive"?

https://order-order.com/2019/06/15/actual-channel-4-news-question-boris-johnson-homphobe-misogynist-feel-charge/

It turns out that C4 was careful to stress to the young women before soliciting their opinion that Boris is a homophobe and a misogynist, in their view.

What is Ofcom actually for?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 17, 2019, 00:39:56 am
Quote from: Slim on June 16, 2019, 10:19:28 amEsther's backing Boris, no surprises there.

And it was reported on Friday that following his decision to leave the process, Matt is "talking to all of the other candidates". I'm assuming that Matt expects vague assurances or perhaps some sort of career favour in order for his support. But I don't really see the 20 MPs who voted for him just conveniently falling into line; they'll just make their own choice.

Well - for whatever reason, Matt is backing Boris. People are speculating on Twitter that Boris has offered him a job in return for his support, but why would he? I don't see many of the MPs who backed Matt following suit. I suppose it could sway a few people in the wider party in the final ballot but I don't think that will be a close run thing.

Watched some of the highlights, if that's the word, of the C4 debate entitled "Britain's Next PM", featuring five candidates who almost certainly won't be.

I think Jeremy Hunt has missed a trick here - he could have declined like Boris, and put a bit of credibility space between himself and the other four. Could have associated himself with Boris, rather than the four with the least support. He could also have delivered a bit of well-deserved kick to a broadcaster that is avowedly anti-Conservative.

I gather Rory was the most popular with the C4 audience, no surprises there. I cannot imagine why he wants to lead a party which espouses liberal and democratic values he despises. His position is utterly incoherent unless you accept that he wants to remain in the EU. But he claims to want to deliver Brexit. Not an honest man.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 17, 2019, 04:48:00 am
Rory now second favourite at 12/1.

Boris 1/6.  So an easy £100 to make - if £600 is staked. Surely can't fail.  Right..? ;)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on June 17, 2019, 12:40:25 pm
"Vote for me I have plan"

What Plan?

"I don't know... but Vote for me, my plan is better than his plan"

But what is your plan?

"Better than all their plans"

What plan is that?

"NO NO all their plans are rubbish my plan is way better... its brilliant"

OK so what is your plan?

"I don't KNOW yet but its better than every plan in the world trust me its a great plan"

SO can you go into some detail about your plan.

"No my plan is still in the planning stage but its a great plan"

"NO no no my plan is better than your plan that you are planning because I am not planning a plan, but its a great plan."

So your plan is not to have a plan

"Yes urr No yes yes no and no its a great plan because its a plan yes no"

When can we have your yes no plan?

"After I remember to plan it but its a great plan, every one voted for my plan so vote for my plan which is better than your plan"

I don't need a plan I only ask the questions!

"Oh anyway I voted for my plan so it will definitely work, trust me"

Do you have a plan?

"My plan is the plan that every one hates"

How will that work?

"Because its my plan and I can not think of my own plan ....yet"

Boris do you have a plan?

The sound of tumble weed in the desert.

"No his plan is crap vote for my plan"

Can we have some detail on your plan?

"Well if I had details about my plan that would be a plan but trust me and my plan will work because I have a plan."

So you do have a plan.

"No don't trust him, I've seen his plan and my plan is better because I no yes no no yes have a plan and it will work better than that plan"

"Look in to my eyes my plan is better than everyone's plan because everyone hates my plan"

"No I hate his plan but trust me I have a plan and it will work"

Ok great you have a plan?

"Of course I have a plan"

What is your plan?

"Plan B and Plan C"

Great two plans how do they work

"Well if plan B does not work I use plan C"

So what are the Plans B and C

"They are very similar to each other and bit like plan A"

Plan A?

"yes its similar to plan C"

What is plan C

"the same as plan B"

"I HAVE 10 PLANS"

"I HAVE 100 PLANS"

"NO NO I can deliver my plan 1000%"

"2000% is my success rate in delivering plans"

"well I can deliver my yes no no yes no yes plan 110% so there"
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 17, 2019, 14:02:04 pm
Great to have you back, rufus...even when your point is so laboured ;)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 17, 2019, 17:00:27 pm
I'm happy with Dominic's plan. I'm not 100% convinced by Boris' plan; he needs to find a way to defeat a treacherous parliament and an activist pro-Remain speaker determined to betray their country and its people. But he may well be keeping his cards to his chest.

One thing that struck me yesterday was something that Sajid said: I can't quite remember his precise words but paraphrasing, he said that the next PM would need to work on the reason people had voted to leave, citing public services and austerity.

That's not what the majority of Conservative Party members want to hear. They don't want to be told that they voted to rid their country of the EU as a sort of tragic mistake provoked by other circumstances, as if they'd turned to drugs or crime.

And yet today, he's said that he'd vote to leave in a second referendum. Something a bit disingenuous there, somewhere.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 17, 2019, 21:57:29 pm
Imagine the outrage among the snivelling classes if this happens tomorrow:


(http://truth.justdied.com/images/boris_coronation.jpg)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 15:05:45 pm
Hope I'm wrong, but I think Rory may well go through to the next stage of the process this evening. My thinking is that people who might otherwise have voted for (say) Michael or Jeremy have given up on that following the scale of Boris' vote in the first round.

And Rory will pick up a few spoiler votes from the small-minded / sick Europhile end of the party. The creepy little man is more likely to land blows on Boris because he has no need to pull his punches. The others will be hoping for jobs in the first Boris cabinet; Rory knows he has no hope of that.

I wonder if Matt pulling out might, ironically, have extended the competition a bit? Because votes that might otherwise have gone to him could prop up other candidates past the 33 vote point today.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 18, 2019, 18:14:55 pm
Pleased that the one man in touch with reality as regards Brexit is still in the race.

I think it's bad news for him that the only departee is Raab. Can't see too many supporters of this Brextremist transferring their vote to Rory.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 18, 2019, 19:38:04 pm
Yes, the Raab punt is down not surprisingly; however Rory is now into 8/1 and that's before the imminent BBC debate.

I'm not holding my breath though.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 19:57:28 pm
Quote from: döm on June 18, 2019, 18:14:55 pmPleased that the one man in touch with reality as regards Brexit is still in the race.

You don't mean Creepy Rory, surely? In what version of reality is delivering Brexit on the back of Theresa's deal a viable option? He's by some distance the candidate with the most laughable, unrealistic plan.

I'm disappointed that he's managed to slime through to the next stage - tonight's debate is the perfect vehicle for his small-minded ego-driven spite, and I do wish he'd remember - or at least pretend - that he's a Conservative. But he'll be ejected soon enough.

Slightly concerned that the Brussels Broadcasting Company's arch-remainer Emily Maitliss is in charge of proceedings this evening; she doesn't even pretend to be fair or impartial.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:11:33 pm
Watching the BBC programme now. First questioner wants to know how the candidates will get their Brexit plan through parliament.

Boris and Sajid both saying they will stick to Oct 31st. Jeremy and Michael saying they'd be flexible on that. Creepy Rory says he won't do that.

None have answered the questioner so far. They've just said that they will sort it out. Don't worry, leave it to me.

Reasonably good-natured so far to be fair. Michael making the most of his credentials as a lifelong Brexiteer, which is fair. Oh here comes a Gove blue-on-blue against Boris.

No sign of a gaffe so far - Boris doing very well, very statesmanlike. I think his team has made him prepare.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:19:24 pm
Got to say Michael is doing well here. Boris is doing fine but he looks like he doesn't really want to be there. Which he doesn't. Michael is enjoying himself.

Rory wants to know how No Deal can possibly get through parliament given that parliament doesn't like it. But his own plan depends on getting the existing withdrawal "agreement" through parliament. Eh?

Jeremy Hunt pointing out to the second questioner what a lot of people somehow don't get - you can't get a good deal on anything without being prepared to walk away. That's obvious, frankly.

Here comes the Irish border question. This is a joke frankly. The British government won't build a hard border, the Irish won't and I can't see the EU sending civil engineers over to build one. Don't make me laugh.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on June 18, 2019, 20:27:45 pm
I saw the  debate for 2 minutes.

And it was endless
Quote from: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:19:24 pmJeremy Hunt pointing out to the second questioner what a lot of people somehow don't get - you can't get a good deal on anything without being prepared to walk away. That's obvious, frankly.

Utter tosh, you can not threaten something you will not do. Obviously you have not negotiated anything more than taking sweets from kids.

Give me what I want, if you don't I will kill myself.

OK, clever.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:28:34 pm
I honestly think Boris is knocking this out of the park now, despite some initial reluctance. Confident, passionate answers. Must admit that Rory is at least being civil. Alarmingly deluded but civil.

All of them doing pretty well - been impressed with Michael and Jeremy. Sajid a bit dry. Four of these gentlemen would make a good PM.

Oh Rory's got his tie off - I'm sure he had one on to begin with.

Next questioner wants to know about taxing the working classes. I do think Boris made a mis-step with his high-earner tax intentions and he'll probably pay for it now. Well played, BBC. Well played.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:29:54 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on June 18, 2019, 20:27:45 pmUtter tosh, you can not threaten something you will not do. Obviously you have not negotiated anything more than taking sweets from kids.

They would do it; that's what's gone over your head.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:34:06 pm
Got to say Michael is not afraid to big himself up - and I guess in this situation, you can't blame him. We're told that he's the candidate with the most empathy with the poor working classes.

Gove wants to bring up Corbyn, Maitlis doesn't want him to. Given that he's the leader of the opposition and this is a contest to be the PM, arguably fair enough.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:38:56 pm
Good grief Michael is playing a blinder here I have to say - managing to find a personal angle for every question. He has also without a doubt prepared very well, and he's citing definite plans for every question.

Unsurprisingly Rory doesn't like tax cuts, why he even joined the Conservative Party I have no clue.

Sajid not getting much of a look in here.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:46:30 pm
So Boris is, at last, getting mugged by the BBC. They've brought an Imam on to complain about his "letterbox" comment.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on June 18, 2019, 20:50:48 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:29:54 pmThey would do it; that's what's gone over your head.
Yes they will try. They don't care, it will not affect these NO Plan idiots. They believe their own Lies.

Blah blah Blah Lie lie Blah blah Lie
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 18, 2019, 21:07:01 pm
Well - hopefully no-one will steal your sweets.

Anyway in the end I quite enjoyed that. Was Boris the best performer? No, I don't think so. But he wasn't the worst either. No-one landed any blows on Boris and given his current position as front runner by several miles, that's the only important point.

Bravo Michael Gove, I think you played a blinder there. Jeremy Hunt came over as confident, calm and assured. Sajid did fine but he was boring. As for Rory - he expressed himself well but nonsense came out of his mouth every time he did.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on June 18, 2019, 21:19:56 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 18, 2019, 21:07:01 pmWell - hopefully no-one will steal your sweets.
You could not catch me and I would not fall for your delusional beliefs.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 18, 2019, 21:45:05 pm
Rory out to 14/1 after that.  

Boris steadfast at 1/6.

Don't think either clipped any fences or blazed a trail but the betting now seems be reflecting more who is most likely to be backed by the voting members rather than who is considered to have wider appeal.

Still looks a formality, but let's see where we are come Friday.

Incidentally, I thought Gove's broadsides at Corbyn were quite entertaining.  Get him on HIGNFY.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on June 18, 2019, 21:49:18 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:38:56 pmUnsurprisingly Rory doesn't like tax cuts, why he even joined the Conservative Party I have no clue.
Because they're the natural party of Government?

QuoteSajid not getting much of a look in here.
Good. He looks like a baby, that or the Hood from Thunderbirds...
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Richard_2112 on June 18, 2019, 22:33:40 pm
It's thoroughly depressing that the big highlight from this debate, and for me shows just how awful the caliber of contenders are in this leadership bid, is that Boris didn't make a tit of himself.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 18, 2019, 23:04:18 pm
What a load of horse***t that was! I despair if we have to find a PM from that shower. Gove probably had the best night., Boris was....Boris, unconvincing with his "it'll be alright, trust me" shtick. Descended into a bit of a mess at times when Maitlis (purrrr) didn't have the authority to control it. Questions were predictable......as were most of the answers.
'Just call me Saj' laboured his working class, immigrant credentials. Rory was desperate to tell everyone he was in the army. I don't think I heard Boris mention his tenure as London's mayor once, surprising. Just as surprising was the fact that he was only one generation away from sitting on his grandfather's knee being read the Koran!
I think I want Boris to win now.....just because it will piss off Juncker, Barnier, Verhofstadt et al
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 18, 2019, 23:27:23 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 18, 2019, 20:28:34 pmOh Rory's got his tie off - I'm sure he had one on to begin with.
Borrowed.........like the suit
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 19, 2019, 00:34:37 am
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on June 18, 2019, 21:49:18 pmBecause they're the natural party of Government?
Good. He looks like a baby, that or the Hood from Thunderbirds...

I was actually thinking that yesterday!

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/thehood.jpg)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 19, 2019, 00:42:32 am
Who will Boris face in the final ballot?

That's up to Boris' camp. All they have to do is lend 15 or 20 votes from their own supporters - and I hear they are easily well enough organised to do this - to the other candidate they want him to face in the last two. If they don't want Jeremy Hunt in the last two, no problem.

If I was one of Dominic's supporters though, I think I'd vote for Savid tomorrow and hope Creepy Rory goes out in the next round.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 19, 2019, 08:23:24 am
Thoughts from the debate - Boris came across better than I expected, I think his team have done a good job coaching - was funny though when he obviously forgot Abdullah's name and was scrabbling around wondering how to address him.
Rory although probably being the most honest came across as quite naive I just don't think he has the leadership credentials as yet. Gove kept trying to bring Corbyn into everything to deflect the issues, Sajid did and said nothing special but I don't see him being a heavy enough hitter to progress much further. Hunt did OK and still looks and talks  the most statesmanlike.
I wish all of them would have dropped the points scoring personal drop-ins  - I was a muslim, my family grew up in poverty, my parents ran a small business, I have Irish Heritage, I was an Orphan bollocks and even Rory greeting Abdullah in Arabic......really cringeworthy stuff.......
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 19, 2019, 08:48:43 am
The other thing I don't get is Gove's case for scrapping VAT and bringing in another tax....???
Why not just reduce VAT and maybe increase the range of products not subject to VAT instead of bringing in a new scheme that would cost millions to implement?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 19, 2019, 09:32:55 am
Quote from: The Letter R on June 19, 2019, 08:23:24 amThoughts from the debate - Boris came across better than I expected, I think his team have done a good job coaching - was funny though when he obviously forgot Abdullah's name and was scrabbling around wondering how to address him.
Rory although probably being the most honest came across as quite naive I just don't think he has the leadership credentials as yet. Gove kept trying to bring Corbyn into everything to deflect the issues, Sajid did and said nothing special but I don't see him being a heavy enough hitter to progress much further. Hunt did OK and still looks and talks  the most statesmanlike.
I wish all of them would have dropped the points scoring personal drop-ins  - I was a muslim, my family grew up in poverty, my parents ran a small business, I have Irish Heritage, I was an Orphan bollocks and even Rory greeting Abdullah in Arabic......really cringeworthy stuff.......

Agree with nearly everything you say except that Michael only invoked Corbyn towards the end, unless I'm misremembering. And if Rory was being honest last night then he's a lot more naive than I thought. I'd say that he's by some margin the least honest of the five.

I suspect Rory felt unwell last night, not just uncomfortable.


(http://truth.justdied.com/images/rory_unwell.jpg)


(http://truth.justdied.com/images/rory_more_unwell.jpg)


It turns out that Abdullah from Bristol is a raging anti-semite / borderline Nazi. Amusingly, given that Abdullah's question is "Do the candidates realise that words have consequences?" he's deleted a boatload of colourful tweets overnight.

Nicky Campbell on 5 Live has already apologised for having him on the air this morning:

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/ncapol.png)


One of Abdullah's now-deleted gems was "The Jews got justice". I hope someone at the BBC will be asked to explain why they didn't vet their contributors first.

https://order-order.com/2019/06/19/abdullah-bristol-wants-know-panel-agree-words-consequences/
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 19, 2019, 12:20:58 pm
The BBC's response to the Abdullah scandal, which I think is fair enough:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9ag2A0XoAE9yAr.png)

Abdullah has apparently now been suspended from the school where he worked as deputy head (!)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 19, 2019, 12:36:51 pm
Ah - I must check the Abdullah storm out - not seen any news this morning....
Funny how these things come back to bite people - a local Imam too I believe......
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 19, 2019, 13:38:26 pm
Wow, an Islamist Muslim gets selected; I mean, what were the chances?  ::)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 19, 2019, 14:06:09 pm
Quote from: Matt2112 on June 19, 2019, 13:38:26 pmWow, an Islamist Muslim gets selected; I mean, what were the chances?  ::)
An imam expressing extreme, hateful views....what are the chances?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 19, 2019, 14:49:45 pm
Quite an interesting result from a poll of 700 viewers by Opinium:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9bOWbWWkAAhxWz.png)

I wouldn't say either Rory or Boris were in the top two personally! And Michael Gove, irrespective of whether you'd want him to win the leadership, definitely performed best for me. That doesn't reflect my preference for leader, just my view of their performances in the BBC's Brexit Show Trial.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 19, 2019, 15:52:30 pm
It also turns out that Aman, another of the panel's questioners, worked for the BBC's political wing:


(https://i0.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/BBC-GUEST-AMAN-THAKAR-LABOUR-HQ-copy-1.png)


https://order-order.com/2019/06/19/aman-london-worked-labour-hq-investigating-anti-semitism/

This time the BBC aren't denying they knew about it.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 19, 2019, 18:39:46 pm
I was expecting Rory to leave the process today, because I assumed that some of Dom and Boris' supporters would do the decent thing and make sure Sajid didn't come last. But I didn't expect the creepy one to actually drop votes. Looks like his lacklustre performance last night - he didn't look too well, to be fair - is what's cost him, rather than tactical nous.

Very glad to see Rory go. Whatever happens now, we can at least be sure that the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will be a rational person. And while I understand that opinions differ, my own view is that all the remaining candidates are men of honesty and integrity; something I couldn't say in good conscience this morning.

Looks to me like Boris v Hunt in the final ballot. Have a great evening everyone.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 19, 2019, 20:37:49 pm
Think I'll stick to the golf.  :-\
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 19, 2019, 21:52:51 pm
I'm not sure about any of the candidates but it looks like, perhaps, the BBC should have declined to take part in the debate ;D
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: zoony on June 20, 2019, 09:58:40 am
What a pathetic washed out process this finding a new leader is! Someone should have been in place ready to step in as soon as May had finished. It's been obvious from the start that Johnson is going to win. Personally,  I agreed with McVeys views more than any of the others. I'm certainly no Tory, but I just hope that Johnson takes us properly out of the EU, and more importantly keeps Corbyn out, even though I'm more of a Labour voter.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 20, 2019, 11:39:34 am
Wondering on what the thinking is, for Boris' camp as they consider which of the three they'd like to oppose him in the play off.

Sajid is not as well-known as the other two and is frankly a dull and charmless man, unlikely to engineer a breakthrough in the wider party. But the rags-to-riches ordinary background card that he's bound to play might cast Boris' privileged background in a difficult light.

Hunt and Gove are both capable statesmen, both with distinguished records as cabinet ministers. Hunt is a safe pair of hands; Gove a more capable and electrifying campaigner. But his drug revelations will put off a lot of the more traditional party member voters.

I think though given Michael's conduct when Boris looked like standing in 2016, Team Boris will play safe and make sure he goes out today.

The nice thing though is that all three of the remaining also-ran candidates will have an eye on a job in Boris' cabinet, and punches will be pulled in the coming weeks. Creepy Rory might have gone a bit feral.

Good times. Good, good times.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 20, 2019, 13:08:23 pm
Javid down.

No strong indication of tactical voting.

Michael has overtaken Jeremy. Surprising.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 20, 2019, 13:15:38 pm
Two spoilt ballot papers. A little hissy fit of pique on the part of Rory and one of his supporters, I suspect.

Got to think that plan B for Sajid's supporters is likely to be Jeremy Hunt in most cases. 34 votes going begging. I think Jeremy will end up with a couple more than Michael.

No doubt a few of Boris' supporters will take a view on who they'd like to see in second place at the last minute. Boris has the support of more than half of his fellow Tory MPs now, something Jeremy Corbyn couldn't imagine in his wildest dreams.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 20, 2019, 21:51:41 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 20, 2019, 13:15:38 pmGot to think that plan B for Sajid's supporters is likely to be Jeremy Hunt in most cases. 34 votes going begging. I think Jeremy will end up with a couple more than Michael.
(http://truth.justdied.com/images/finalpballot.png)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 21, 2019, 15:59:29 pm
Max Hastings, Boris Johnson's editor at the Telegraph for 10 years is not a fan.

"I'm not sure he's capable of caring for any human being other than himself." Baffled by support from Tory MPs "who wouldn't trust him with their wallet or their wife."
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 21, 2019, 18:45:31 pm
Yes I read similar words from Max a few weeks ago; he has written some good books in his time so that's a shame.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 22, 2019, 12:16:51 pm
The lead story on BBC News today is that, apparently, Boris has had an argument with the missus.

Er...and..?  ::)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 22, 2019, 14:30:17 pm
Quote from: Matt2112 on June 22, 2019, 12:16:51 pmThe lead story on BBC News today is that, apparently, Boris has had an argument with the missus.

Er...and..?  ::)
Exactly! He's still an idiot and unfit to govern!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: zoony on June 22, 2019, 14:58:00 pm
Quote from: döm on June 22, 2019, 14:30:17 pmExactly! He's still an idiot and unfit to govern!
I guess nobody would be good enough for you mate....
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 22, 2019, 17:04:00 pm
Quote from: zoony on June 22, 2019, 14:58:00 pmI guess nobody would be good enough for you mate....
Well no that's not true. This current lot are a pretty hopeless and uninspiring bunch though.

Johnson is the bottom of the barrell though. A bit of bonhomie and charisma covering up a whole host of incompetencies.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on June 22, 2019, 20:45:25 pm
Quote from: döm on June 22, 2019, 17:04:00 pmWell no that's not true. This current lot are a pretty hopeless and uninspiring bunch though.

Johnson is the bottom of the barrell though. A bit of bonhomie and charisma covering up a whole host of incompetencies.
There's a fantastic anecdote from Jeremy Vine doing the rounds on social media about Boris turning up at a corporate awards ceremony literally two minutes before he was due to make a speech - without apparently even knowing what the awards were actually for; have you seen it dom..?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on June 22, 2019, 21:29:57 pm
Quote from: Matt2112 on June 22, 2019, 20:45:25 pmThere's a fantastic anecdote from Jeremy Vine doing the rounds on social media about Boris turning up at a corporate awards ceremony literally two minutes before he was due to make a speech - without apparently even knowing what the awards were actually for; have you seen it dom..?
And then the next time Jeremy Vine was at an awards ceremony with Boris, Boris did exactly the same thing.

I think Alexander could surprise us. There's probably an intensely serious guy in the middle of the buffoon that he's doing his best to suppress. The fact that he became Mayor if London twice says something, not sure what, but something.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 22, 2019, 21:34:20 pm
Quote from: Matt2112 on June 22, 2019, 20:45:25 pmThere's a fantastic anecdote from Jeremy Vine doing the rounds on social media about Boris turning up at a corporate awards ceremony literally two minutes before he was due to make a speech - without apparently even knowing what the awards were actually for; have you seen it dom..?
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on June 22, 2019, 21:29:57 pmAnd then the next time Jeremy Vine was at an awards ceremony with Boris, Boris did exactly the same thing.

I think Alexander could surprise us. There's probably an intensely serious guy in the middle of the buffoon that he's doing his best to suppress. The fact that he became Mayor if London twice says something, not sure what, but something.
Yes where Vine was initially amazed by Johnson's off the cuff brilliance only to see him repeat the self same performance at another speech later.

I think that Johnson is living proof that the UK has a long way to go before it becomes a meritocracy.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 23, 2019, 00:45:57 am
Quote from: Matt2112 on June 22, 2019, 20:45:25 pmThere's a fantastic anecdote from Jeremy Vine doing the rounds on social media about Boris turning up at a corporate awards ceremony literally two minutes before he was due to make a speech - without apparently even knowing what the awards were actually for; have you seen it dom..?

Yes, but the point of that anecdote was that it turned out to be an act - came out with exactly the same schtick at the next awards ceremony he and Vine both attended, right down to appearing to forget the punchline from his joke.

We can't know of course whether Vine's anecdote is true; I would not ascribe too much credibility t0 anything written by a left-leaning journalist, especially one who works for the BBC, and particularly when attempting to smear a prominent Tory politician.

But let's say that it is true. I suspect actually, that it is (in essence. Probably a bit of exaggeration). Even Vine concedes that Boris went down a storm both times. He was speaking at an awards dinner and provided some entertainment. He wasn't making a statement to the House of Commons.

He's a very intelligent man and a clever operator. And that anecdote tells me that the UK's status as a meritocracy is alive and kicking.

I'm only sorry to hear that Boris has the pound shop Stasi living next door, their ears and listening devices pressed to the wall ready to record his every indiscretion so that it can be reported to the police. And of course to the Guardian newspaper, who probably provided them with their tape recorder quite some time ago.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 23, 2019, 00:56:32 am
By the way - on a related topic, odd that this little episode of mysogynistic violence hasn't been reported so much today?

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/corbslunge01.jpg)

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/corbslunge02.jpg)

Apparently Jez lunged at a female reporter who asked him an awkward question and had to be pulled away by his own staff.

Mind you - he was taking a punt having a go at his age. Would have been quite funny if she'd punched his lights out.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 23, 2019, 12:39:59 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 23, 2019, 00:45:57 amI'm only sorry to hear that Boris has the pound shop Stasi living next door, their ears and listening devices pressed to the wall ready to record his every indiscretion so that it can be reported to the police. And of course to the Guardian newspaper, who probably provided them with their tape recorder quite some time ago.
You think they can't afford a mobile phone? 

I imagine if they can afford to live next door to Boris Johnson's residence they can!

I don't think this is some communist plot to overthrow a putative leader.  They approached The Guardian for sure but it's been the front page of every paper. 

It even took 2 days before the Telegraph tried to turn it into a left wing plot rather than a public interest story about the next leader of the country.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 23, 2019, 13:06:20 pm
Well I found it interesting that it was reported that they were using a "tape recorder". But I think the salient point here is that their North Korean style neighbour-monitoring activities prompted them to call the police, who found that no law had been broken and everyone involved was safe and unharmed.

It's interesting, isn't it, that they provided their nosy neighbour recording to the Guardian after the police had concluded their investigation, and found that there was no case to answer?

A rational person could only conclude that police time was wasted in order to lend a bit of sensationalism to what turned out to be a politically motivated non-story.

The best thing about this is that it will fortify Boris' campaign to become our Prime Minister, not compromise it. Because it's obvious that the Left are very, very frightened of Boris Johnson. And because decent people will want to hit back against their despicable smear tactics.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 23, 2019, 13:28:02 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 23, 2019, 13:06:20 pmThe best thing about this is that it will fortify Boris' campaign to become our Prime Minister, not compromise it. 
Looking at the online papers today that is not the effect it's having. Hunt according to one voter poll is now 3 points ahead, Boris has seemed an utter mess this week when he should have been a shoe in. Talking of which he couldn't even put his socks on properly for his big hustings interview. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-lets-his-socks-appeal-slip-on-big-day-x5bfwcsr5
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 23, 2019, 19:24:51 pm
It's the party membership, not their voters, who will elect Boris as PM. You only had to hear the response from the audience to Iain Dale's question yesterday to understand that his position has been strengthened.

And it's coming to light now that Boris' would-be secret police neighbours are committed leftard euro-snivellers who have done this as part of a smear and hate campaign that they've been running for some time. It adds up to sympathy for decent, rational people for whom the Conservative Party is a natural home.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 23, 2019, 20:14:33 pm
Perhaps May won't actually be the worst Tory PM.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: zoony on June 23, 2019, 23:04:10 pm
Quote from: Nick on June 23, 2019, 20:14:33 pmPerhaps May won't actually be the worst Tory PM.
Someone will have to be seriously fecking bad to beat her!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: pdw1 on June 24, 2019, 00:34:15 am
Quote from: zoony on June 23, 2019, 23:04:10 pmSomeone will have to be seriously fecking bad to beat her!
Seems Boris is quite good at beating women....
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 24, 2019, 11:51:02 am
Quote from: pdw1 on June 24, 2019, 00:34:15 amSeems Boris is quite good at beating women....

Oh really? Could you tell us more about this, please?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 24, 2019, 14:47:26 pm
Who took these photos and sold them to the press? wonder what their politics were?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7174061/Boris-Carrie-seen-time-police-row.html
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 24, 2019, 16:41:29 pm
Quote from: Nick on June 24, 2019, 14:47:26 pmWho took these photos and sold them to the press? wonder 4what their politics were?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7174061/Boris-Carrie-seen-time-police-row.html
More Commie bastards I imagine! Wonder why they wont let them keep their private lives private!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on June 24, 2019, 20:06:39 pm
From Boris's ex boss Max Hastings, ex editor of the Telegraph, an extraordinary piece.

I was Boris Johnson's boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on June 24, 2019, 20:53:52 pm
While Boris refuses to debate with Hunt on live TV his ratings must be falling....the whole process is bizarre in the extreme :-\
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 24, 2019, 21:42:50 pm
Quote from: Nick on June 24, 2019, 14:47:26 pmWho took these photos and sold them to the press? wonder what their politics were?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7174061/Boris-Carrie-seen-time-police-row.html

I would say that's a rather meaningless comparison because they are not particularly controversial or intrusive photographs, and as far as I'm aware the photographer didn't waste police time to squeeze a bit of sensationalism out of them.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on June 24, 2019, 21:45:22 pm
But why the  need for a TV debate? Only party members can vote, most of whom will have made up their minds and the rest can have a meeting in a phone box somewhere.

And whatever BoJo may be, at least he's not Jeremy Corbyn.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on June 24, 2019, 22:29:29 pm
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on June 24, 2019, 21:45:22 pmBut why the  need for a TV debate? Only party members can vote, most of whom will have made up their minds and the rest can have a meeting in a phone box somewhere.

And whatever BoJo may be, at least he's not Jeremy Corbyn.
Both valid points, but in answer to the second one...he's just as bad....
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 24, 2019, 22:30:29 pm
Quote from: Bez on June 24, 2019, 20:53:52 pmWhile Boris refuses to debate with Hunt on live TV his ratings must be falling....the whole process is bizarre in the extreme :-\

Here's the thing: Boris hasn't refused to debate on live TV. He appeared on a live debate less than a week ago, as documented in this very thread. He debated Hunt at a conference in Birmingham which was covered by the press, including the broadcast media. Further opportunities are already planned.

It's worth remembering also that more than 99% of Sky TV's viewers won't actually get to vote in the leadership election. But this rhetoric and spin about Boris refusing to turn up, or the Sky debate being "cancelled" when he'd never agreed to do it in the first place, is strictly for sheep.

In the present circumstances, at a time when a hostile media is obsessed with his private life - when his neighbours have listening devices pressed against the wall for the benefit of the Guardian - can he really be blamed for limiting these opportunities for intrusive questioning?

However while I have no doubt that in a sane world turning down the Sky event was the proper approach, I would agree that in the real world where gullible people are easily led and a hostile, partisan media will happily fulfil its agenda by unethical means, as the BBC showed us last week - it's not a good look.

However let's keep it real; he isn't exactly hiding from questioning and indeed the BBC has published an interview today with our next Prime Minister in which he faced difficult questioning from their chief Tory-hater political editor Laura Kuennsberg. And he gave eminently sensible, careful, articulate, well-prepared and realistic answers - a million miles from the bumbling caricature some would have you believe.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-48752002/boris-johnson-interview-in-full
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 24, 2019, 22:31:34 pm
Quote from: Bez on June 24, 2019, 22:29:29 pmBoth valid points, but in answer to the second one...he's just as bad....
Come, this is an awful and utterly unjustified thing to say. Corbyn is a blinkered, unreconstructed Marxist IRA sympathiser who operates by scapegoating wealth creators.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 24, 2019, 23:48:23 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 24, 2019, 22:31:34 pmCome, this is an awful and utterly unjustified thing to say. Corbyn is a blinkered, unreconstructed Marxist IRA sympathiser who operates by scapegoating wealth creators.
Wheras Johnson is a blinkered, principle free, unscrupulous narcissist who resides in Steve Bannon's back pocket.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 24, 2019, 23:57:32 pm
Well that's quite a conspiracy theory you've assembled there, based on the available evidence.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on June 25, 2019, 08:45:50 am
Quote from: Slim on June 24, 2019, 22:31:34 pmCome, this is an awful and utterly unjustified thing to say. Corbyn is a blinkered, unreconstructed Marxist IRA sympathiser who operates by scapegoating wealth creators.
In addition to Dom's points he's also a serial liar, a philanderer, has been sacked from at least two jobs and an idiot....

I'm no fan of Hunt, but he's far the better option as PM....

You neglected to mention Corbyn's support for terrorist groups in the middle east ;)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on June 25, 2019, 08:50:41 am
Quote from: Slim on June 24, 2019, 22:30:29 pmHere's the thing: Boris hasn't refused to debate on live TV. He appeared on a live debate less than a week ago, as documented in this very thread. He debated Hunt at a conference in Birmingham which was covered by the press, including the broadcast media. Further opportunities are already planned.

It's worth remembering also that more than 99% of Sky TV's viewers won't actually get to vote in the leadership election. But this rhetoric and spin about Boris refusing to turn up, or the Sky debate being "cancelled" when he'd never agreed to do it in the first place, is strictly for sheep.

In the present circumstances, at a time when a hostile media is obsessed with his private life - when his neighbours have listening devices pressed against the wall for the benefit of the Guardian - can he really be blamed for limiting these opportunities for intrusive questioning?

However while I have no doubt that in a sane world turning down the Sky event was the proper approach, I would agree that in the real world where gullible people are easily led and a hostile, partisan media will happily fulfil its agenda by unethical means, as the BBC showed us last week - it's not a good look.

However let's keep it real; he isn't exactly hiding from questioning and indeed the BBC has published an interview today with our next Prime Minister in which he faced difficult questioning from their chief Tory-hater political editor Laura Kuennsberg. And he gave eminently sensible, careful, articulate, well-prepared and realistic answers - a million miles from the bumbling caricature some would have you believe.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-48752002/boris-johnson-interview-in-full
Kuensberg (sp?) is very clever in the way that she handles Boris. The recent BBC documentary around the whole Brexit issue showed her interviewing him in a bar where she raised her skirt while she perched on a stool so her knee was directly in his eyeline. The footage screened showed him focussed on that and not her face at any point.

I haven't had chance to view the BBC interview from yesterday at this point and it may go some way to addressing some of the concerns around his lack of willingness to debate with Hunt one to one. The doubt remains about his ability to not self-inflict a catastrophic defeat until he does...
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 25, 2019, 10:00:22 am
Quote from: Bez on June 25, 2019, 08:45:50 amI'm no fan of Hunt, but he's far the better option as PM....

The party won't want to risk a sort of grim continuity from Theresa placing undue emphasis on the importance of a relationship with the EU over getting rid of it, and while I would agree that in other circumstances he'd be a safe pair of hands, at the moment we need an uncompromising approach.

We have to lance this boil and if it takes a blunt instrument like Boris to do it, that's the preferred option. There's a fear that Hunt might dab a bit of Savlon on it, hope it goes away, then when it doesn't, tell us that we have to live with it forever.

It's going to be painful to get the pus out but it won't go away until we do.

I quite enjoyed that metaphor.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on June 25, 2019, 10:41:42 am
I was Boris Johnson's boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister
Max Hastings (https://www.theguardian.com/profile/maxhastings)

The Tory party is about to foist a tasteless joke upon the British people. He cares for nothing but his own fame and gratification
Mon 24 Jun 2019 16.20 BSTLast modified on Tue 25 Jun 2019 10.01 BST
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Boris Johnson with Max Hastings in 2002. Photograph: Nigel Howard/ANL/Rex Features
Six years ago, the Cambridge historian Christopher Clark published a study of the outbreak of the first world war, titled The Sleepwalkers (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jul/19/sleepwalkers-christopher-clark-review). Though Clark is a fine scholar, I was unconvinced by his title, which suggested that the great powers stumbled mindlessly to disaster. On the contrary, the maddest aspect of 1914 was that each belligerent government convinced itself that it was acting rationally.
It would be fanciful to liken the ascent of Boris Johnson to the outbreak of global war, but similar forces are in play. There is room for debate about whether he is a scoundrel or mere rogue, but not much about his moral bankruptcy, rooted in a contempt for truth. Nonetheless, even before the Conservative national membership cheers him in as our prime minister - denied the option of Nigel Farage, whom some polls suggest (https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/18/most-conservative-members-would-see-party-destroye) they would prefer - Tory MPs have thronged to do just that.
 

Quote from: undefinedHe would not recognise the truth, whether about his private or political life, if confronted by it in an identity parade
I have known Johnson since the 1980s, when I edited the Daily Telegraph and he was our flamboyant Brussels correspondent. I have argued for a decade that, while he is a brilliant entertainer who made a popular maître d' for London as its mayor, he is unfit (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/boris-johnson-unfit-to-be-prime-minister) for national office (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/boris-johnson-unfit-to-be-prime-minister), because it seems he cares for no interest save his own fame and gratification.
Tory MPs have launched this country upon an experiment in celebrity government, matching that taking place in Ukraine (https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2019/may/01/ukraine-joker-in-chief-volodymyr-zelenskiy-comedian-politicians)and the US, and it is unlikely to be derailed by the latest headlines. The Washington Post columnist George Will observes that Donald Trump does what his political base wants "by breaking all the china". We can't predict what a Johnson government will do, because its prospective leader has not got around to thinking about this. But his premiership will almost certainly reveal a contempt for rules, precedent, order and stability.


 
Read more
A few admirers assert that, in office, Johnson will reveal an accession of wisdom and responsibility that have hitherto eluded him, not least as foreign secretary. This seems unlikely, as the weekend's stories emphasised. Dignity still matters in public office, and Johnson will never have it. Yet his graver vice is cowardice, reflected in a willingness to tell any audience, whatever he thinks most likely to please, heedless of the inevitability of its contradiction an hour later.

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Like many showy personalities, he is of weak character. I recently suggested to a radio audience that he supposes himself to be Winston Churchill, while in reality being closer to Alan Partridge. Churchill, for all his wit, was a profoundly serious human being. Far from perceiving anything glorious about standing alone in 1940, he knew that all difficult issues must be addressed with allies and partners.
Churchill's self-obsession was tempered by a huge compassion for humanity, or at least white humanity, which Johnson confines to himself. He has long been considered a bully, prone to making cheap threats. My old friend Christopher Bland, when chairman of the BBC, once described to me how he received an angry phone call from Johnson, denouncing the corporation's "gross intrusion upon my personal life" for its coverage of one of his love affairs.
"We know plenty about your personal life that you would not like to read in the Spectator," the then editor of the magazine told the BBC's chairman, while demanding he order the broadcaster to lay off his own dalliances.
Bland told me he replied: "Boris, think about what you have just said. There is a word for it, and it is not a pretty one."
He said Johnson blustered into retreat, but in my own files I have handwritten notes from our possible next prime minister, threatening dire consequences in print if I continued to criticise him.
Johnson would not recognise truth, whether about his private or political life, if confronted by it in an identity parade. In a commonplace book the other day, I came across an observation made in 1750 by a contemporary savant, Bishop Berkeley: "It is impossible that a man who is false to his friends and neighbours should be true to the public." Almost the only people who think Johnson a nice guy are those who do not know him.
There is, of course, a symmetry between himself and Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn is far more honest, but harbours his own extravagant delusions. He may yet prove to be the only possible Labour leader whom Johnson can defeat in a general election. If the opposition was led by anybody else, the Tories would be deservedly doomed, because we would all vote for it. As it is, the Johnson premiership could survive for three or four years, shambling from one embarrassment and debacle to another, of which Brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum) may prove the least.
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/96c6c8656292100ee31f8ab69a7b5e052aa83f6e/138_315_1785_1070/master/1785.jpg?width=460&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=4241ed9127455f5f7d374b7fec5769fa)
Boris Johnson row: top Tory party donor joins calls for explanation

 
Read more
For many of us, his elevation will signal Britain's abandonment of any claim to be a serious country. It can be claimed that few people realised what a poor prime minister Theresa May would prove until they saw her in Downing Street. With Boris, however, what you see now is almost assuredly what we shall get from him as ruler of Britain.

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We can scarcely strip the emperor's clothes from a man who has built a career, or at least a lurid love life, out of strutting without them. The weekend stories of his domestic affairs are only an aperitif for his future as Britain's leader. I have a hunch that Johnson will come to regret securing the prize for which he has struggled so long, because the experience of the premiership will lay bare his absolute unfitness for it.
If the Johnson family had stuck to showbusiness like the Osmonds, Marx Brothers or von Trapp family, the world would be a better place. Yet the Tories, in their terror, have elevated a cavorting charlatan to the steps of Downing Street, and they should expect to pay a full forfeit when voters get the message. If the price of Johnson proves to be Corbyn, blame will rest with the Conservative party, which is about to foist a tasteless joke upon the British people - who will not find it funny for long.
Max Hastings is a former editor of the Daily Telegraph (https://www.theguardian.com/media/dailytelegraph) and the London Evening Standard
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on June 25, 2019, 11:27:51 am
Quote from: döm on June 24, 2019, 23:48:23 pmWheras Johnson is a blinkered, principle free, unscrupulous narcissist
Oh Goody! Sounds like Rufus T Firefly :)

And Corbyn can be Chicolini
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on June 25, 2019, 13:31:05 pm
Beep Beep Beep ..... ah the sound of Boris backing up ..... seems his promise of leaving the EU by the end of October was pie in the sky after all.........welcome not to the backstop ......errrr.....implementation period people ;D ::)

From the Kuenssberg interview....

Mr Johnson said if he was elected he would start new talks as soon as he reached Downing Street to discuss a free trade agreement.
He also said he hoped the EU would be willing to grant a period of time where the status quo was maintained for a deal to be finalised after Brexit.
He called this "an implementation period", but accepted this was not the same as the implementation period in the current draft treaty agreed with the EU.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Chris Quartly on June 25, 2019, 13:53:45 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 25, 2019, 10:00:22 amThe party won't want to risk a sort of grim continuity from Theresa 
They both uncannily have a knack of saying something that is untrue today and worry about it tomorrow, May managed it for a while, we'll see how long Johnson can manage to do it.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 25, 2019, 16:59:06 pm
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/will-boris-johnsons-brexit-plan-work-asks-robert-peston/ (https://www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/will-boris-johnsons-brexit-plan-work-asks-robert-peston/)

"...some of them may fear that he's the cabaret act on the Titanic"   ;D
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on June 26, 2019, 10:33:28 am
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Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 26, 2019, 10:39:07 am
Reading through some of the recent posts on this thread, I can totally understand why the left-leaning media engages in these smear tactics and scaremongering. It's all too sadly apparent that people are susceptible to it.

I'll respond to one reasonable intervention, though:

Quote from: The Letter R on June 25, 2019, 13:31:05 pmBeep Beep Beep ..... ah the sound of Boris backing up ..... seems his promise of leaving the EU by the end of October was pie in the sky after all.........welcome not to the backstop ......errrr.....implementation period people ;D ::)

From the Kuenssberg interview....

Mr Johnson said if he was elected he would start new talks as soon as he reached Downing Street to discuss a free trade agreement.
He also said he hoped the EU would be willing to grant a period of time where the status quo was maintained for a deal to be finalised after Brexit.
He called this "an implementation period", but accepted this was not the same as the implementation period in the current draft treaty agreed with the EU.

Keith : your conclusion does not flow from its premise. Nothing that Boris said in that Kuenssberg interview contradicts the commitment to leave the EU on Oct 31st. The clue is in the words "after Brexit".
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 26, 2019, 15:01:58 pm
Nice to see you're putting in some effort again rufus. Good work!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on June 26, 2019, 23:02:18 pm
I don't really agree that Boris is PM material but I am increasingly amused at the sight of those that have a mortal fear of life outside the EU getting themselves in such a lather at the prospect of him getting the top job.
I would just remind those that are so petrified of two words, "immediate" and "profound"
;D
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on June 27, 2019, 18:49:22 pm
Rather enjoyed Conrad Black's opinion on Max Hasting's rather intemperate intervention in the leadership contest:

  "As the former employer of both of them, and although their positions were of un-equal importance
   and challenges, on balance I must declare Boris to be more reliable and trustworthy than Max."


and

  "Boris's peccadilloes were more absurd, complicated and over-publicised than the shambles of the
   personal lives of other journalists. But his editorial opinions were sensible and consistent. His
   schtick grew tiresome, like an over-familiar vaudeville act, but he was at all times a person of
   goodwill and his foibles were deployed to the benefit of the enterprise.

  "He had his lapses, but he was capable, successful and reliable when it counted, and he is, as he
   appears, a pleasant man. Max is an ill-tempered snob with a short attention span. He has his
   talents, but it pains me to report that when seriously tested, he was a coward and a flake. I
   think Boris will be fine."



 :D
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on June 29, 2019, 19:50:39 pm
Quote from: Slim on June 27, 2019, 18:49:22 pmRather enjoyed Conrad Black's opinion on Max Hasting's rather intemperate intervention in the leadership contest:

  "As the former employer of both of them, and although their positions were of un-equal importance
   and challenges, on balance I must declare Boris to be more reliable and trustworthy than Max."



and

  "Boris's peccadilloes were more absurd, complicated and over-publicised than the shambles of the
   personal lives of other journalists. But his editorial opinions were sensible and consistent. His
   schtick grew tiresome, like an over-familiar vaudeville act, but he was at all times a person of
   goodwill and his foibles were deployed to the benefit of the enterprise.

  "He had his lapses, but he was capable, successful and reliable when it counted, and he is, as he
   appears, a pleasant man. Max is an ill-tempered snob with a short attention span. He has his
   talents, but it pains me to report that when seriously tested, he was a coward and a flake. I
   think Boris will be fine."




 :D
Not sure of the worth of a Conrad Black reference to be honest!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 01, 2019, 14:02:47 pm
Jeremy Hunt is starting to say the 'right' things at last. A £6bn assistance package for 'no deal' consequences, cutting corporation tax to 12.5% and removing business rates for thousands of smaller businesses.
I'd have thought this is just the type of talk to focus minds in Brussels.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Chris Quartly on July 01, 2019, 15:43:23 pm
Yes, saying "leaving with a no deal is going to be shit, we'd better set aside a shit ton of money for this idiotic idea", seems sensible. Bravo. What a guy.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 01, 2019, 18:20:31 pm
Quote from: Chris Quartly on July 01, 2019, 15:43:23 pmYes, saying "leaving with a no deal is going to be shit, we'd better set aside a shit ton of money for this idiotic idea", seems sensible. Bravo. What a guy.

The thing is - it's not actually our idea, it's the EU's. Or at the very minimum, it's as much the EU's idea as ours. Also, he didn't actually say that it would be "shit". It involves taking back control of our borders and laws, as well as honouring the mandate that is the result of our country's greatest ever democratic exercise - so in fact, it's far from "shit".

Equally importantly, failing to prepare for and accept a clean WTO Brexit effectively puts the decision of leaving the EU in the hands of the EU. Not really what's wanted.

Jeremy is starting to say the right things but there's a degree of doubt that his heart is in it and after all Theresa used to say the right things as well until about a year ago. He won't overcome that. The party won't take the risk of a dismal continuity from the last PM.

I thought it was quite shrewd of JH to state that Boris would get a job in his cabinet, inviting a reciprocal gesture that would effectively give him a bit more room to criticise. But Boris very deftly sidestepped that trap.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 01, 2019, 18:59:43 pm
It wasn't that long ago that Boris was saying all the wrong things - he seems to be a confirmed brexiteer these days but he wasn't always.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 01, 2019, 20:08:17 pm
Quote from: Chris Quartly on July 01, 2019, 15:43:23 pmYes, saying "leaving with a no deal is going to be shit, we'd better set aside a shit ton of money for this idiotic idea", seems sensible. Bravo. What a guy.
"shit ton" - surely you meant "shit tonne"?
Anyway, never heard it before - nice onne!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on July 05, 2019, 07:23:42 am
Hunt shoots himself in the foot with his failure to declare foxhunting cruel and a refusal to express his views on abortion....

I despair
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on July 05, 2019, 08:13:22 am
Quote from: Bez on July 05, 2019, 07:23:42 amHunt shoots himself in the foot with his failure to declare foxhunting cruel and a refusal to express his views on abortion....

I despair
You really would think their PR teams would know better.
Although at the moment he is playing to Conservative Members who seem to have a different outlook on life to most normal people. I wonder if his stance would change if he became PM and had to woo the public.......slippery buggers these Politicians.....
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on July 05, 2019, 09:24:26 am
Quote from: The Letter R on July 05, 2019, 08:13:22 amYou really would think their PR teams would know better.
Although at the moment he is playing to Conservative Members who seem to have a different outlook on life to most normal people. I wonder if his stance would change if he became PM and had to woo the public.......slippery buggers these Politicians.....
Average age 57, white, above average earnings and supposedly with better than average education....
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 05, 2019, 13:23:53 pm
Quote from: The Letter R on July 05, 2019, 08:13:22 amYou really would think their PR teams would know better.
Although at the moment he is playing to Conservative Members who seem to have a different outlook on life to most normal people. I wonder if his stance would change if he became PM and had to woo the public.......slippery buggers these Politicians.....
They are pretty much all the same - Johnson is just a bit more bare-faced about it
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 06, 2019, 08:39:34 am
Quote from: döm on July 05, 2019, 13:23:53 pmThey are pretty much all the same - Johnson is just a bit more bare-faced about it
Which is a bad thing?   ;)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 06, 2019, 15:28:46 pm
Quote from: Slim on July 01, 2019, 18:20:31 pmThe thing is - it's not actually our idea, it's the EU's. 
What crap. The EU have offered us a deal. 

Your blinkered thinking makes you blind.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 06, 2019, 18:04:39 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 06, 2019, 15:28:46 pmWhat crap. The EU have offered us a deal.

Your blinkered thinking makes you blind.
But we don't need a deal. We are leaving. When you leave a golf club, you don't have to negotiate the terms on which you leave, do you? It's the EU who are insisting that there must be conditions, in order to punish us to deter any other nation leaving. If they want to continue to benefit from a close relationship that's fine, but making us agree to their conditions for our departure? Nonsense.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 07, 2019, 10:10:14 am
Then you can NOT play play Golf at that club. You can go to other clubs with not so good terms.

That would be WTO

Slim was suggesting the EU had not offered us a deal. 

Remember David Leave won the vote by saying we can have a better deal that would be easy to make. This makes the referendum void.

Can I have two ballot papers like the conservative party.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 07, 2019, 17:24:15 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 07, 2019, 10:10:14 amThen you can NOT play play Golf at that club. You can go to other clubs with not so good terms.
I think you misunderstand. I was a member of that golf club. I may, or may not, have played golf at that club.  Now I no longer want to pay to be a member. I do not have to agree the terms on which I leave.
However, I do realise that I have to agree to terms under which I could play their course without being a member. You could equate that to a future trade deal. Now, if the golf club is in financial trouble and needs as much income as possible, it would be mutually beneficial for it to allow me to play its course as a non-member on different terms to a member. It would not be in its interest to prevent me from playing under new terms. It probably would not try to lock me in the pro-shop to prevent me leaving.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on July 07, 2019, 19:50:22 pm
Quote from: DavidL on July 07, 2019, 17:24:15 pmI think you misunderstand. I was a member of that golf club. I may, or may not, have played golf at that club.  Now I no longer want to pay to be a member. I do not have to agree the terms on which I leave.
However, I do realise that I have to agree to terms under which I could play their course without being a member. You could equate that to a future trade deal. Now, if the golf club is in financial trouble and needs as much income as possible, it would be mutually beneficial for it to allow me to play its course as a non-member on different terms to a member. It would not be in its interest to prevent me from playing under new terms. It probably would not try to lock me in the pro-shop to prevent me leaving.
The difference being that when you join a good club you don't sign an agreement outlining terms for leaving. 

There are some clubs that operate differently, however. There's a club in Surrey where the membership don't know the final bill for the year until after the financial year end. The total is added up and then divided by the membership who then pay up....

The point here is that Golf clubs are a poor example, because each one is different and has the ability to set its own rules and regulations.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 07, 2019, 20:03:39 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 06, 2019, 15:28:46 pmWhat crap. The EU have offered us a deal.

Your blinkered thinking makes you blind.

Rufus, sometimes I think you must have hired a moron to break in a keyboard for you. The EU has failed to reach an agreement with the United Kingdom government, and its intransigent insistence on refusing to negotiate any further in order to reach one makes a clean WTO Brexit as much its own doing as anyone else's.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 07, 2019, 20:05:29 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 07, 2019, 10:10:14 amThen you can NOT play play Golf at that club. You can go to other clubs with not so good terms.

That would be WTO

Slim was suggesting the EU had not offered us a deal.

Remember David Leave won the vote by saying we can have a better deal that would be easy to make. This makes the referendum void.

Can I have two ballot papers like the conservative party.

No. Leave won the vote by saying that we'd leave the EU. That's it. That in itself is already a better deal.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 07, 2019, 21:55:12 pm
Quote from: Slim on July 07, 2019, 20:03:39 pmRufus, sometimes I think you must have hired a moron to break in a keyboard for you. The EU has failed to reach an agreement with the United Kingdom government, and its intransigent insistence on refusing to negotiate any further in order to reach one makes a clean WTO Brexit as much its own doing as anyone else's.
umm TM agreed a deal with the EU. 27 countries have agreed it, the UK have not. This is meant to be quick and easy. You have just shown the democratic deficit of the leave side thank you. There is now no will of the people because it was meant to be quick and easy and that is what they voted for the scaremongering was true

What you see in action is leverage by larger trading blocks than us. Also coming our way from USA, China and other trading Blocks This is what you voted for. We have to agree to their terms.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on July 09, 2019, 21:08:05 pm
Hunt won tonight's debate, Boris just blustered through it again, no substance.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 09, 2019, 21:44:29 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 07, 2019, 21:55:12 pmumm TM agreed a deal with the EU. 27 countries have agreed it, the UK have not. This is meant to be quick and easy. You have just shown the democratic deficit of the leave side thank you. There is now no will of the people because it was meant to be quick and easy and that is what they voted for the scaremongering was true

Here's the thing Rufus : because Theresa failed to get her deal through parliament, she hasn't been able to make it fly, and therefore neither has the EU.

Here's another thing. We didn't vote for a quick & easy exit from the EU, or a difficult one. We voted to leave the EU. The remainer scaremongering has already been shown to be false, for the most part. But if you really want to argue about a democratic deficit, the one thing you can be sure we didn't vote for was to remain in the EU.

Watched Boris vs Hunt on ITV this evening. Bit shambolic on both sides. Hunt calmer and more assured, Johnson more energetic and emphatic. Also considerably more credible than Hunt, in my view. Thought it was managed fairly by ITV, no Brussels Broadcasting Corporation-style remainer shennanigans.

But anyway whether one agrees with my analysis there or not, I think you'd have to agree that no banana skin was stepped on. And Labour's astonishing new spit-on-the-voters-and-ignore-a-referendum-like-a-banana-republic stance will have firmed up Boris' position a bit, not that it needs it really.

I believe the party members will have started to vote. To me it looks even more a foregone conclusion than it did a week ago.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 09, 2019, 23:42:49 pm
Quote from: Slim on July 09, 2019, 21:44:29 pmHere's another thing. We didn't vote for a quick & easy exit from the EU, or a difficult one. We voted to leave the eu
No people were told that if they voted to leave the eu they would get better terms than we have now....and it would be quick and easy...and that it would not be a problem. This is called electoal deficits.

Scarmongering that old chestnut.  .....tell that to Honda employees
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: zoony on July 10, 2019, 00:18:48 am
Quote from: Nick on July 09, 2019, 21:08:05 pmHunt won tonight's debate, Boris just blustered through it again, no substance.
He is just too safe and boring though mate, like the current PM. I know he has his faults, but Boris has got that dynamism about him, and that is what will see him comfortably over the winning line.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: zoony on July 10, 2019, 00:20:06 am
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 09, 2019, 23:42:49 pmNo people were told that if they voted to leave the eu they would get better terms than we have now....and it would be quick and easy...
Well none of that was mentioned on my voting slip.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on July 10, 2019, 01:28:57 am
Boris doesn't even need to try does he?  He doesn't have to impress any TV viewers, so can just trot out  any old codswallop while the card-carrying Tory faithful do the rest.

I knew I should have taken him at 5/4.

He's 1/20 now.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on July 10, 2019, 15:03:53 pm
Sir Kim Darroch the UK ambassoder to the USA thrown under a bus by Boris/Trump/leaker. So now the US has dictated who we can have as representatives, the whole world will now see how we dont back our own. Taking back control indeed, shocking..watch out for Farage to replace him!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 10, 2019, 15:28:30 pm
Quote from: Nick on July 10, 2019, 15:03:53 pmSir Kim Darroch the UK ambassoder to the USA thrown under a bus by Boris/Trump/leaker. So now the US has dictated who we can have as representatives, the whole world will now see how we dont back our own. Taking back control indeed, shocking..watch out for Farage to replace him!
Taking back control = Trump taking control: from a relationship of equals to Airstrip One
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 10, 2019, 16:54:19 pm
Quote from: zoony on July 10, 2019, 00:20:06 amWell none of that was mentioned on my voting slip.
neither was WTO or no deal
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on July 10, 2019, 18:55:33 pm
Sovereign countries choose their own envoys. They don't allow them to be bullied or humiliated. Kowtowing to a foreign power or failing to defend those sent to promote Britain's interest shows weakness and undermines our security as others will think they can push us around.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 10, 2019, 19:17:40 pm
But, the dozy twonk resigned. He didn't have that long left on his tenure either did he?

All he had to do was wait a few days and Trump would have forgotten all about it, he'd had had another bee flying around inside his head.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 10, 2019, 19:23:48 pm
Quote from: Nick on July 10, 2019, 18:55:33 pmSovereign countries choose their own envoys. They don't allow them to be bullied or humiliated. Kowtowing to a foreign power or failing to defend those sent to promote Britain's interest shows weakness and undermines our security as others will think they can push us around.
He resigned after being found to be an undiplomatic diplomat. His position was untenable.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on July 10, 2019, 19:32:33 pm
Sir Kim's observations were spot on. One should not have to resign for being correct. He was paid to inform Whitehall of the situation in the USA. Trump has only today described the kidney as "having a special place in the heart". 
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 10, 2019, 22:30:59 pm
So, he was getting paid to state the bleeding obvious. Job's a good 'un.

Maybe he was embarrassed by earning so much for so little so manufactured his own way out :)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 10, 2019, 23:10:54 pm
Quote from: DavidL on July 10, 2019, 19:23:48 pmHe resigned after being found to be an undiplomatic diplomat. His position was untenable.
No it was a private email. This is his job.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 11, 2019, 07:37:25 am
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 10, 2019, 23:10:54 pmNo it was a private email. 
That became public
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 11, 2019, 09:41:51 am
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 10, 2019, 19:17:40 pmBut, the dozy twonk resigned. He didn't have that long left on his tenure either did he?

All he had to do was wait a few days and Trump would have forgotten all about it, he'd had had another bee flying around inside his head.
yes to this
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 11, 2019, 09:54:26 am
Quote from: DavidL on July 11, 2019, 07:37:25 amThat became public
I think you are missing the point of a diplomat. One of the reasons for a diplomat is to give their assessment of the Government to where they are appointed. It is not the diplomats problem that their views became public.

What do you think the views of the British Diplomat in Zimbabwe would have been during the Mugabi years?

Mugabi is a brilliant bloke and he runs the country really well and he really looks after his citizens.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on July 13, 2019, 07:45:20 am
Boris was taken apart by Andrew Neil last night. Complete blusterer, AN was very good at exposing Boris's lack of capability.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 13, 2019, 08:48:06 am
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 11, 2019, 09:54:26 amI think you are missing the point of a diplomat. One of the reasons for a diplomat is to give their assessment of the Government to where they are appointed. It is not the diplomats problem that their views became public.

What do you think the views of the British Diplomat in Zimbabwe would have been during the Mugabi years?

Mugabi is a brilliant bloke and he runs the country really well and he really looks after his citizens.
;D
I wouldn't disagree with that but I'd have thought one of the first lessons at 'diplomat school' is the one that explains that email is not a secure medium for conveying opinions that may be used to undermine your position.
If Mugabe had taken offence to a diplomat's view he could have expelled them. It is in the host country's power to do so or indeed refuse to accept someone they do not want in position.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on July 15, 2019, 07:52:40 am
Quote from: DavidL on July 13, 2019, 08:48:06 am;D
I wouldn't disagree with that but I'd have thought one of the first lessons at 'diplomat school' is the one that explains that email is not a secure medium for conveying opinions that may be used to undermine your position.
If Mugabe had taken offence to a diplomat's view he could have expelled them. It is in the host country's power to do so or indeed refuse to accept someone they do not want in position.
How do you suggest the information is communicated then? - we're living in the modern world David these sorts of things are not written on parchment and sealed with wax anymore. All these sorts of communications are supposed to be private and for government officials / trusted civil servants only, who have signed the official secrets act. The publication of these is an act of treason and should be investigated and punished as such. I would also expect to see all our senior ministers 100% supporting Sir Kim.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 15, 2019, 10:42:55 am
Quote from: The Letter R on July 15, 2019, 07:52:40 amHow do you suggest the information is communicated then? - we're living in the modern world David these sorts of things are not written on parchment and sealed with wax anymore. All these sorts of communications are supposed to be private.....
They are not, though. A diplomatic envoy can be useful.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on July 15, 2019, 12:31:28 pm
Quote from: DavidL on July 15, 2019, 10:42:55 amThey are not, though. A diplomatic envoy can be useful.
So it's OK for civil servants who have signed the official secrets act to share Government communications externally and really our Ambassador should have verbally communicated to an envoy and trusted them to accurately communicate this to others....hmmm - that's going to work well!!??
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 15, 2019, 12:46:00 pm
Quote from: The Letter R on July 15, 2019, 12:31:28 pmSo it's OK for civil servants who have signed the official secrets act to share Government communications externally and really our Ambassador should have verbally communicated to an envoy and trusted them to accurately communicate this to others....hmmm - that's going to work well!!??
This could have been malicious intervention by another state.

Verbal communication works well and is fairly secure.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Chris Quartly on July 16, 2019, 20:57:11 pm
You're embarrassing yourself here with this double-down...
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 17, 2019, 00:40:59 am
Quote from: Chris Quartly on July 16, 2019, 20:57:11 pmYou're embarrassing yourself here with this double-down...
And you've spent too long in another country

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/can-email-ever-be-secure/

Would be ambassadors can just skip to the last statement!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Chris Quartly on July 17, 2019, 05:44:54 am
You think verbally communicating is either accurate or secure either? Clearly conversations have never been overheard or passed on incorrectly. Nothing is perfect, but to suggest ambassadors should verbally communicate is either ignorant, stupid, or just pigheaded... shall we go for a triple-down?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 17, 2019, 08:30:56 am
Quote from: Chris Quartly on July 17, 2019, 05:44:54 amYou think verbally communicating is either accurate or secure either? Clearly conversations have never been overheard or passed on incorrectly. Nothing is perfect, but to suggest ambassadors should verbally communicate is either ignorant, stupid, or just pigheaded... shall we go for a triple-down?
Why not.
What I am saying is communicating such views by a method that has been proven to be insecure is, in my opinion, stupid. Clearly that communication could possibly be used to cause mischief by many, including other states.
It was never my intention to suggest all diplomatic communication should be verbal as you seem to suggest.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Chris Quartly on July 17, 2019, 16:55:48 pm
Ok let's invent a new method of completely secure communication, job done! I would contend that verbal communication is less secure, prone to error in replication, especially over time... it's simply a nonsensical argument. 

What exactly are you suggesting? That uncomfortable truths are never actually left on record, or that diplomats don't actually do their job?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 18, 2019, 00:50:17 am
Well on that last point of contention, I attach no blame to Kim Darroch myself. I would say his comments about Trump were a bit hyperbolic but let's face it, allowing for a bit of rhetorical licence, a pretty fair assessment. But it's his job to offer his opinion whether right or wrong and the fact that it has caused embarrassment is not a problem of his own making.

I don't believe for a moment that Boris' refusal to paint himself into a corner contributed to him resigning. His position had become untenable through no fault of his own and he would have gone either way.

The last of the leadership hustings has now taken place. Both candidates did very well to express themselves and actually while I was quite impressed with Hunt, I thought Boris was inspirational; impassioned, assured and eloquent. And funny.

I think most readers would agree that a banana skin of monumental proportions was needed to deny Boris the job at Number Ten, and it has not manifested itself. The media's Blame Boris game over Kim Darroch hasn't worked. His neighbours' surveillance operations for the Guardian came to nothing. No-one particularly cares what Max Hastings thinks.

And many or most of the party will already have voted by now.

Good times.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 18, 2019, 07:11:47 am
Quote from: Slim on July 18, 2019, 00:50:17 amI would say his comments about Trump were a bit hyperbolic but let's face it, allowing for a bit of rhetorical licence, a pretty fair assessment. 
I certainly agree with that.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 18, 2019, 12:53:52 pm
Good times for Johnson and his followers.  Bad times ahead for the country.

And his piece de resistance last night about the kipper is complete nonsense.  The regulation he was blaming on the EU was in fact UK law as delivery to the final consumer is not in the remit of the EU.  Complete BS from the BSitter par excellence
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on July 18, 2019, 13:24:01 pm
Well the shortest serving PM was what 119 days - I reckon Boris may beat that.....we shall see....
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 18, 2019, 15:01:12 pm
Quote from: The Letter R on July 18, 2019, 13:24:01 pmWell the shortest serving PM was what 119 days - I reckon Boris may beat that.....we shall see....
I think you could be right
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Chris Quartly on July 18, 2019, 15:14:06 pm
Some good news at least https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/18/first-blood-parliament-blocks-boris-johnson-s-plan-to-sideli (https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/18/first-blood-parliament-blocks-boris-johnson-s-plan-to-sideli)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 18, 2019, 15:52:43 pm
Quote from: döm on July 18, 2019, 12:53:52 pmGood times for Johnson and his followers.  Bad times ahead for the country.

And his piece de resistance last night about the kipper is complete nonsense.  The regulation he was blaming on the EU was in fact UK law as delivery to the final consumer is not in the remit of the EU.  Complete BS from the BSitter par excellence
Yes it seems that Kipper-cooker's fishy tale is a red herring - caught Boris, hook, line and sinker. Obviously Jeremy Hunt supporters.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 22, 2019, 20:08:39 pm
Quote from: Chris Quartly on July 18, 2019, 15:14:06 pmSome good news at least https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/18/first-blood-parliament-blocks-boris-johnson-s-plan-to-sideli (https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/18/first-blood-parliament-blocks-boris-johnson-s-plan-to-sideli)
That's good news for those who hope to spend their lives snivelling on their obedient little knees, spitting weakly in the faces of millions of ordinary people for their trouble in taking the time to vote in Britain's greatest ever democratic exercise, yes. For the rest of us - pathetic.

So: Boris' ascendance to Britain's top job seems pretty much nailed down now. The votes are in, the announcement will be made tomorrow.

Fascinated to see a number of senior Tories wetting their panties over their party's choice, possibly the most ludicrous example of which is Alan Duncan, who apparently requested to make a statement in the Commons over his resignation.

Reality check: The official, openly stated policy of the current government has been "no deal is better than a bad deal" since 2017. This was enshrined in the Conservative manifesto under which these idiots fought their seats, and became ministers.

Boris' position is exactly the same; no more, no less.

Another reality check: none of these snivelling remainer clowns stood the slightest chance of keeping their jobs under the next Prime Minister, and jumping before they get pushed is simple attention-seeking.

By the way, I'm told Gordon Brown made the observation earlier that more people voted for Ed Balls in Strictly than voted for Boris to become PM. Which is true probably, but has anyone reminded the old boy how many people voted to make him PM in 2007?

Finally - you could be forgiven if this passed you by, but the Lib Dems elected a new leader as well, today. Jo Swinson versus Ed Davey. I think that's what's known as "scraping the barrel". Jo came out on top, by the way.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on July 22, 2019, 20:16:17 pm
I wonder if they will announce a general election date at the same time?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on July 23, 2019, 07:11:17 am
Quote from: Nick on July 22, 2019, 20:16:17 pmI wonder if they will announce a general election date at the same time?
Charlie Elphicke's suspension from the Tory party for alleged sexual assault and a potential loss in the upcoming by-election (forced by an expenses cheating Tory) will certainly hurt the Tory majority in the House...

If you remember; Elphicke's previous suspension was lifted "just in time" for the Theresa May vote of confidence back in May ;)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on July 23, 2019, 08:26:52 am
Quote from: Slim on July 22, 2019, 20:08:39 pmReality check: The official, openly stated policy of the current government has been "no deal is better than a bad deal" since 2017. This was enshrined in the Conservative manifesto under which these idiots fought their seats, and became ministers.

Boris' position is exactly the same; no more, no less.


The problem is no one can agree exactly what a bad deal is - no deal is particularly bad though......I can see the leavers getting ready to blame the remainers once they realise not even their Godhead Boris can negotiate his way out by the end of October and we are still part of the EU at Christmas.......roll on a GE
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Bez on July 23, 2019, 09:00:09 am
Quote from: The Letter R on July 23, 2019, 08:26:52 amThe problem is no one can agree exactly what a bad deal is - no deal is particularly bad though......I can see the leavers getting ready to blame the remainers once they realise not even their Godhead Boris can negotiate his way out by the end of October and we are still part of the EU at Christmas.......roll on a GE
Not sure that "roll on a GE" will actually move us forward....

The two main parties are so unpopular that neither will likely win an outright majority and we'll end up with the Lib Dems, Brexit Party (although unconvinced that they'll actually win any seats) & the SNP holding the balance of power and we'll end up in the same situation - just another six months down the line...
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 23, 2019, 09:12:50 am
Quote from: Bez on July 23, 2019, 09:00:09 amNot sure that "roll on a GE" will actually move us forward....

The two main parties are so unpopular that neither will likely win an outright majority and we'll end up with the Lib Dems, Brexit Party (although unconvinced that they'll actually win any seats) & the SNP holding the balance of power and we'll end up in the same situation - just another six months down the line...
The Tories should form an electoral pact with the Brexit party in the event of a GE.
Hello Brexit....bye, bye Labour
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on July 23, 2019, 09:33:58 am
Quote from: Slim on July 22, 2019, 20:08:39 pmFinally - you could be forgiven if this passed you by, but the Lib Dems elected a new leader as well, today. Jo Swinson versus Ed Davey. I think that's what's known as "scraping the barrel".

As opposed to BoJo vs Hunt?  :o  It could be said that remark is what's known as "leading with your chin". :)

Jo Swinson is a genuinely progressive politician; except, of course - and this is where I'd agree with James - the hard Remainer ticket on which she and her party is standing strikes me as morally inexcusable (if politically understandable; without it they'd be nothing, probably).
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 23, 2019, 09:43:28 am
Quote from: Slim on July 22, 2019, 20:08:39 pmsnivelling remainer clowns 
and these are your friends in the same party............????!!!!

The Maples and Oaks will be cut back by the EU, China and USA.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on July 23, 2019, 10:01:27 am
Quote from: Slim on July 22, 2019, 20:08:39 pmAnother reality check: none of these snivelling remainer clowns stood the slightest chance of keeping their jobs under the next Prime Minister, and jumping before they get pushed is simple attention-seeking.

Yes, I loved the way Alan Duncan trumpeted his stance dangling from a zip wire while waving a couple of Union Flags.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 23, 2019, 10:14:17 am
A dysfunctional leader leading a dysfunctional Government formed from a dysfunctional party and running a dysfunctional parliament.  Once a no deal Brexit is delivered the UK will become dysfunctional.  So the perfect leader for the time - Mr Zeitgeist!

And anyone who says he couldn't be worse than the last leader, just wait!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on July 23, 2019, 10:24:39 am
Quote from: döm on July 23, 2019, 10:14:17 amA dysfunctional leader leading a dysfunctional Government formed from a dysfunctional party and running a dysfunctional parliament.  Once a no deal Brexit is delivered the UK will become dysfunctional.  So the perfect leader for the time - Mr Zeitgeist!

And anyone who says he couldn't be worse than the last leader, just wait!

Meanwhile, on the opposite bench is an even more dysfunctional leader leading an even more dysfunctional opposition formed from an even more dysfunctional party and running a dysfunctional Shadow Cabinet.

Boris couldn't be worse than Corbyn; but that's the utterly parlous state of British politics at the moment. 
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 23, 2019, 11:17:44 am
Quote from: Matt2112 on July 23, 2019, 10:24:39 amMeanwhile, on the opposite bench is an even more dysfunctional leader leading an even more dysfunctional opposition formed from an even more dysfunctional party and running a dysfunctional Shadow Cabinet.

Boris couldn't be worse than Corbyn; but that's the utterly parlous state of British politics at the moment. 
Absolutely! Hence dysfunctional parliament !
Not sure if Labour is more or less dysfunctional than the Conservatives.  I think Boris heading up the Tories may just push them in front though
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: zoony on July 23, 2019, 11:22:23 am
Quote from: döm on July 23, 2019, 10:14:17 amA dysfunctional leader leading a dysfunctional Government formed from a dysfunctional party and running a dysfunctional parliament.  Once a no deal Brexit is delivered the UK will become dysfunctional.  So the perfect leader for the time - Mr Zeitgeist!

And anyone who says he couldn't be worse than the last leader, just wait!
Well anyone who isn't happy with what is happening, and are hell bent on staying in the EU have got a simple choice. feck off and go and live in a country that is staying in it!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 23, 2019, 11:28:39 am
Quote from: zoony on July 23, 2019, 11:22:23 amWell anyone who isn't happy with what is happening, and are hell bent on staying in the EU have got a simple choice. feck off and go and live in a country that is staying in it!
Absolutely Donald !  And they better get on with it quickly before the ending of freedom of movement makes it a much trickier affair.

The plummeting pound will make it a more expensive  than it was previously but that's a choice people will need to make
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 23, 2019, 12:03:56 pm
Quote from: Matt2112 on July 23, 2019, 09:33:58 amJo Swinson is a genuinely progressive politician; except, of course - and this is where I'd agree with James - the hard Remainer ticket on which she and her party is standing strikes me as morally inexcusable (if politically understandable; without it they'd be nothing, probably).
Bang on! They've been saved by some of the whining 48% and their insistence on refusing to accept the result of a democratic process.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on July 23, 2019, 12:27:53 pm
So we now have a Johnson for a PM - no doubt that will amuse some of our American Friends as well  ;D
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 23, 2019, 14:17:55 pm
We now have one in the White House and one in No.10 - the march of the idiots gathers pace! ;D
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 23, 2019, 15:18:36 pm
Quote from: zoony on July 23, 2019, 11:22:23 amWell anyone who isn't happy with what is happening, and are hell bent on staying in the EU have got a simple choice. feck off and go and live in a country that is staying in it!


When did constructive criticism of politicians mean we have to leave the country...is this 1930s Germany?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 23, 2019, 15:56:04 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 23, 2019, 15:18:36 pm?

When did constructive criticism of politicians mean we have to leave the country...is this 1930s Germany?
No. The trains don't run on time...
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 23, 2019, 16:11:42 pm
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 23, 2019, 15:56:04 pmNo. The trains don't run on time...
that does not bode well for hs2 then.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 23, 2019, 16:24:24 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 23, 2019, 16:11:42 pmthat does not bode well for hs2 then.
It'll never happen. Cancelling HS2 is the second thing on Boris's 'to do' list
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on July 23, 2019, 18:46:33 pm
Britain Trump..WTF

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-49090804/trump-on-johnson-they-call-him-britain-trump
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 23, 2019, 20:54:37 pm
Quote from: Nick on July 23, 2019, 18:46:33 pmBritain Trump..WTF

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-49090804/trump-on-johnson-they-call-him-britain-trump
I'm thinking Trump is Dr Evil and Johnson LIttle Me
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 24, 2019, 09:59:22 am
I'm pleased that Boris' victory was emphatic. 66% of the members and over 50% of the parliamentary party (in the final round of three candidates) - that's good going.

I'm not under the illusion that Boris Johnson is a perfect Prime Minister, but then again there's only been one of those in my lifetime. What I do think he is, is the best choice in the current circumstances.

I think it important that Brexit is delivered in a spirit that honours the referendum, and sees us leave the EU in more than name only. That being the case, it's also important that we have someone committed to leaving it with a deadline; the extend and pretend strategy will not deliver that. What's the point of extending? Without the realistic prospect of being prepared to leave with no deal, the EU are never going to improve their position. Why would they? And if they don't renegotiate with or without a deadline, no deal is probably the only way for us to leave.

And as someone who was told many times by leading figures on both sides that our decision was going to be respected, then took the time to vote in our country's greatest ever democratic exercise - I am certainly entitled to see the UK leave the EU. Properly. And I'm not going to have that messed up either by three wasted years of a useless remainer PM with a tendency to appease and an instinct to negotiate apologetically, or by the EU's useful idiots in her own party and others, doing their snivelling, obedient, kneeling best to undermine it.

Bumpy road ahead but throwing the referendum back in people's faces would be catastrophically divisive, and lead to years of entirely justified anger and hate. We don't want that.

Let's give our new Prime Minister our full support!

(http://truth.justdied.com/images/boris-johnson-wave-1024x580.jpg)

Kudos to Jeremy Hunt by the way. He campaigned well but was good-natured, and magnanimous in defeat. Team Boris chose wisely there.

Oh by the way, just a thought about the attention-seeking ministers who declared their intention to jump before being pushed, this last few days. Each of them stood in their constituency, then became a Minister of the Crown in the current parliament, on a manifesto which explicitly affirmed that no deal is better than a bad deal.

And that, no more or less, is Boris Johnson's position. As it must be for any credible leader.


Will be very interested to see the new cabinet appointments today. I'm told that Jeremy Hunt is insisting on keeping his current job or one of the other big offices of state but I suspect that Boris will want a fresh start for all of those.

There's a huge opportunity here - an alliance between the democratic parties of the centre, the Brexit Party and the Conservatives, could clean up rather nicely at a General Election against a badly split, terrorist sympathetic, Marxist opposition.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 24, 2019, 10:17:59 am
This is a brilliant analysis of the new man in No 10...

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/08/15/boris-johnson-ham-of-fate/ (https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/08/15/boris-johnson-ham-of-fate/)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 24, 2019, 10:32:01 am
Quote from: Slim on July 24, 2019, 09:59:22 amI think it important that Brexit is delivered in a spirit that honours the referendum,
Norway deal?

WTO deal?
Single market deal?

Boris red bus lies

Faridge and his Russian friends getting involved.
Facebook lies.
Cambridge Analytica spreading lies.

Where was the Leave white paper to vote for?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 24, 2019, 12:32:12 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 23, 2019, 15:18:36 pm?

When did constructive criticism of politicians mean we have to leave the country...is this 1930s Germany?

Hi Rufus, I can help with this. Insisting on leaving the EU and criticism are two different things.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 24, 2019, 12:33:42 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 24, 2019, 10:32:01 amNorway deal?

WTO deal?
Single market deal?

Boris red bus lies

Faridge and his Russian friends getting involved.
Facebook lies.
Cambridge Analytica spreading lies.

Where was the Leave white paper to vote for?

I can help with this, as well.

It means LEAVING THE EU. Not leaving it in name only. Not remaining in it. Leaving the EU.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 24, 2019, 12:36:45 pm
Quote from: döm on July 24, 2019, 10:17:59 amThis is a brilliant analysis of the new man in No 10...

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/08/15/boris-johnson-ham-of-fate/ (https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/08/15/boris-johnson-ham-of-fate/)

I stopped reading at this point:

"To grasp how Johnson's akratic character has brought his country to a state approaching anarchy"

There's an awful lot of literature written by people with brains that work properly - I think I'll prioritise that for now. Perhaps if I had a bit more spare time.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 24, 2019, 15:19:54 pm
Boris bop

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23BORISBOP&src=hash (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23BORISBOP&src=hash)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 24, 2019, 15:21:15 pm
Quote from: Slim on July 24, 2019, 12:32:12 pmHi Rufus, I can help with this. Insisting on leaving the EU and criticism are two different things.
OK, yes, Norway then and adhere to their rules

WTO and adhere to their rules.

Good man
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 24, 2019, 15:39:10 pm
We've been members of the WTO since the '90s.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 24, 2019, 15:41:27 pm
Quote from: Slim on July 24, 2019, 12:36:45 pmI stopped reading at this point:

"To grasp how Johnson's akratic character has brought his country to a state approaching anarchy"

There's an awful lot of literature written by people with brains that work properly - I think I'll prioritise that for now. Perhaps if I had a bit more spare time.
It was quite long and I dont think you're the intended audience. Brilliantly written nonetheless.  Using the word anarchy was perhaps a touch strong but he could well end up being the last PM of the UK or the PM who starts the process that concludes with its break-up
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 24, 2019, 15:49:56 pm
Quote from: döm on July 24, 2019, 15:41:27 pmor the PM who starts the process that concludes with its break-up
That was BLiar. Who offered too much to the Scots - principally - and Welsh - Principality -  in the hope of founding a 1,000 year NuLiebour Reich.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: zoony on July 24, 2019, 15:51:01 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 23, 2019, 15:18:36 pm?

When did constructive criticism of politicians mean we have to leave the country...is this 1930s Germany?
Constructive criticism my arse, it's nothing more than slagging the bloke off before he's had a chance.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 24, 2019, 15:56:11 pm
Boris' speech as our head of government set exactly the right tone - liberal and centrist but dynamic and no messing about with Brexit. We are getting it done, as our democracy demands.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 24, 2019, 16:50:08 pm
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 24, 2019, 15:49:56 pmThat was BLiar. Who offered too much to the Scots - principally - and Welsh - Principality -  in the hope of founding a 1,000 year NuLiebour Reich.
Yes, you have a point there.  Still it would be ironic if the coup de grace was delivered by the Conservative and Unionist Party
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on July 24, 2019, 17:00:38 pm
I just hope Boris has learnt from his inglorious public record of massive and embarrassing gaffes as he takes the reins; I also have reservations about that affable but bumbling persona - is it a bluff, or a double-bluff (he indicated the latter in an interview about three years ago)?

But here's the thing - politically my own stance is not a million miles from his, certainly not like it is for the Corbyns and the McDonnells of this world.  And, regardless of the strength and orientation of your political views, a character like Boris will at least engage the electorate.

He's preached to his choir and they've endorsed him accordingly.  Let's see how he gets on with the rest of us.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on July 24, 2019, 18:31:24 pm
At least Graylings gone , the only bright spot of this dark day.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 24, 2019, 19:28:25 pm
Quote from: Nick on July 24, 2019, 18:31:24 pmAt least Graylings gone , the only bright spot of this dark day.
Yes, he was s***e
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Richard_2112 on July 24, 2019, 19:50:57 pm
Disgraced former International Development Secretary Priti Patel has been appointed as Home Secretary. Nice to see Boris starting as he means to go on.

And now we know the price of Sajid Javid dropping out of the leadership bid: Chancellor.

I notice everybody's favourite haunted Victorian pencil Jacob Reece-Mogg is finally given a chance to put his money where his mouth is by being made Leader of the House. Interesting times ahead indeed.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on July 24, 2019, 20:20:55 pm
Glad that Failing Grayling has finally been removed; sadly the similarly execrable Patel is in the Cabinet now. 

Deary me, Boris, this doesn't bode well.  ::)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nick on July 24, 2019, 20:56:58 pm
Of huge concern is the appointment of Liz Truss as International trade secretary. Just a little flavour below

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n_wkO4hk07o


Grayling levels of expectation on an absolutely critical position at this time.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 24, 2019, 22:26:27 pm
Thought the Tory Party was supposed to be a broad church? The cabinet appears to be a Brextremist cult and seems to ignore large swathes of his own party. Dangerous ground when he needs every single vote he can get
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 24, 2019, 22:38:44 pm
Has anyone ever been hospitalised with 'excessive righteous indignation'? Very amusing
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 24, 2019, 23:04:15 pm
Quote from: Richard_2112 on July 24, 2019, 19:50:57 pmI notice everybody's favourite haunted Victorian pencil Jacob Reece-Mogg is finally given a chance to put his money where his mouth is by being made Leader of the House. Interesting times ahead indeed.
Nice edit ;D ;)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 24, 2019, 23:12:18 pm
Quote from: Slim on July 24, 2019, 15:39:10 pmWe've been members of the WTO since the '90s.
?, yes. and through the EU we have a better trading agreements.

Do we have any say in WTO rules? NO

Where is the wto democracy? We do not have any.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 24, 2019, 23:17:20 pm
Quote from: döm on July 24, 2019, 15:41:27 pmIt was quite long and I dont think you're the intended audience. Brilliantly written nonetheless.  Using the word anarchy was perhaps a touch strong but he could well end up being the last PM of the UK or the PM who starts the process that concludes with its break-up

They stopped reading, says it all. Slim stopped reading, so so funny.

Gawd I giggled, I expect nothing more.

Maybe post a link to Peter and Jane next time.

Peter and Jane "How to vote for a racist and a liar" he might read that.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 25, 2019, 08:56:54 am
Where is the democracy in the EU?
Come on Dogman, explain it to us, how we can we as "Europeans" influence the way the EU is run?

Why should anybody be beholden to an organisation deriving from the European Coal and Steel Council? It's like if the NCB and BSC decided to resurrect the British Empire!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 25, 2019, 09:24:25 am
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 25, 2019, 08:56:54 amWhere is the democracy in the EU?
Come on Dogman, explain it to us, how we can we as "Europeans" influence the way the EU is run?

Why should anybody be beholden to an organisation deriving from the European Coal and Steel Council? It's like if the NCB and BSC decided to resurrect the British Empire!
It gives the countries involved a collective say in whats going on.

One of the principal reasons why the UK joined in the first place was because here was this big organisation on its doorstep that was making decisions that was affecting the UK.

Becoming a member enabled it to influence and shape those decisions.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 25, 2019, 12:43:38 pm
Quote from: döm on July 25, 2019, 09:24:25 amBecoming a member enabled it to influence and shape those decisions.
It did?

Not enough, like obvs, or we wouldn't be where we are today!
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 25, 2019, 13:09:44 pm
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 25, 2019, 12:43:38 pmIt did?

Not enough, like obvs, or we wouldn't be where we are today!
What policies enacted by the EU that the UK has committed to has the UK been opposed to?

Its all optics. Largely driven by Johnson and his anti EU ilk when he was a journalist at the Telegraph.

Bent bananas, prawn cocktail crisps and other BS

Anyone for a kipper delivery?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 25, 2019, 15:09:52 pm
I think you'd be hard pushed to make your case to the UK's fishing industry for one, Dom. Or to people who have been put out of work or had their wages driven down by huge-scale immigration from Eastern Europe. And controlling our own laws and borders has little to do with prawn cocktail crisps. I don't think the £39 billion we waste on the EU every year has much to do with the geometry of the bananas we import.

But I have no need really to make these points; I already won that argument in June 2016 and the matter was settled by a referendum. I do so nonetheless for courtesy.

Very sure touch from the Prime Minister in the Commons today - nothing bumbling about that performance. Very many people right across the political spectrum will be relieved to see that we have a team in charge that will firmly put the national interest first. Friendly, but businesslike, firm, assertive.

No more cap in hand. No more treating our country's historic opportunity like a damage limitation exercise. What a criminal waste these last three years of Theresa the Appeaser have been.

I wonder if there will be a General Election this year? The Labour vote is badly split at the moment. The Conservative vote has the potential to hold firm under a Brexit-committed government. Only a small minority of Conservatives are Euro-snivellers.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Slim on July 25, 2019, 15:31:21 pm
Quote from: rufus the dawg on July 24, 2019, 23:17:20 pmThey stopped reading, says it all. Slim stopped reading, so so funny.

Gawd I giggled, I expect nothing more.

Maybe post a link to Peter and Jane next time.

Peter and Jane "How to vote for a racist and a liar" he might read that.

Hi Rufus!  Not surprisingly (I'm sorry to say I think you're more than a little dim), what I typed went over your head.

Read slowly: I stopped reading that piece because it was evident that it was nonsense.

Now I grant you, your own posts fall squarely into that category as well. And they tend to be semi-literate at best. But they aren't nearly as long - and I am a patient and tolerant sort of chap to a point.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Chris Quartly on July 25, 2019, 18:32:28 pm
Next time someone directly insults another user on here I will be suspending their account. 

The pathetic rhetoric on here is at best immature and at worst cancerous. 

Act like adults and have actual conversations or don't bother being here.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 25, 2019, 19:14:25 pm
Can't life imitate Politics?

If anyone wants to insult me, feel free :)
It won't come anywhere close to what's been said to me in the past. Like water off a duck's back to me. Heck, I'd still let you buy me a pint, no matter what you said to me.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: DavidL on July 25, 2019, 20:03:23 pm
Quote from: Chris Quartly on July 25, 2019, 18:32:28 pmNext time someone directly insults another user on here I will be suspending their account.

"Nothing is perfect, but to suggest ambassadors should verbally communicate is either ignorant, stupid, or just pigheaded..."
:o ;D ;)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 25, 2019, 22:28:08 pm
Quote from: Slim on July 25, 2019, 15:31:21 pmHi Rufus!  Not surprisingly (I'm sorry to say I think you're more than a little dim), what I typed went over your head.

Read slowly: I stopped reading that piece because it was evident that it was nonsense.

Now I grant you, your own posts fall squarely into that category as well. And they tend to be semi-literate at best. But they aren't nearly as long - and I am a patient and tolerant sort of chap to a point.
I'm still giggling, so so funny.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 25, 2019, 22:32:55 pm
Quote from: Slim on July 25, 2019, 15:31:21 pmRead slowly: I stopped reading that piece because it was evident that it was nonsense.


Hook line and sinker.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 25, 2019, 22:36:18 pm
Well, I read all the article, even though the author's name should have put me off straight away as it may as well have said "Unrepentant Fenian Bastard".

Here's an article saying that Fintan O'Toole couldn't be more wrong:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/24/fintan-otoole-could-not-be-more-wrong-about-brexit/ (https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/24/fintan-otoole-could-not-be-more-wrong-about-brexit/)

It might be nonsense. It might not. Depends on whether it supports your view or not.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on July 26, 2019, 01:03:38 am
Watched today's respective leaders' speeches as an interested non-partisan observer.

An adrenaline-fuelled Boris on form, of course - made me chuckle in all honesty when he was laying into the opposition benches.  But let's see how his rousing rhetoric today stacks up once we're a bit further down the line.

The stopped clock that is Corbyn asked a few pertinent questions, but his party will not represent a credible opposition while he and his   bunch of front bench radical left  fellow regressives are at the helm.

Get your Dave Millibands and your Hilary Benns sitting there and they might start broadening their appeal.  We can dream.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 26, 2019, 09:28:56 am
Not going to quote Slim's long post but will answer it.

FISHING - not sure how the UK fishing industry will benefit from Brexit. The majority of fish caught by the UK fishing industry goes to the EU and so the UK will want to achieve a good deal. Inevitably that will include access rights for EU fisherman.  Regardless of this there is the underlying issue of low fish stocks. There will still need to be controls on how much is caught.

EASTERN EUROPEAN IMMIGRATION.
There was absolutely no obligation imposed on the UK by the EU  on the nationals of the newly joined countries from Eastern Europe. That decision was made and confirmed by successive UK governments, not the EU.

You talk about cap in hand. That's not the relationship the UK has with the EU at the moment.  It's the relationship it can expect though  when it is desperate to get a good trade deal from the likes of the EU and the US etc when its out on its own, economy suffering badly through the imposition of WTO trade terms
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on July 26, 2019, 09:50:27 am
I've happened upon Jeremy Vine's article/anecdote about his experience with Boris - it may make you laugh, or cry, or both - any which way, it's fascinating reading:

My Boris Story (https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/my-boris-story/)
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 26, 2019, 09:58:21 am
Quote from: Matt2112 on July 26, 2019, 09:50:27 amI've happened upon Jeremy Vine's article/anecdote about his experience with Boris - it may make you laugh, or cry, or both - any which way, it's fascinating reading:

My Boris Story (https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/my-boris-story/)
There's no doubt he's a good orator who loves the sound of his own voice. He's a showman who can think quickly on his feet. His unusual turn of phrase and delivery  make people laugh  Perhaps a stand-up comedian would have been a better career choice
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: zoony on July 26, 2019, 12:32:33 pm
Shouldn't this thread now be closed seeing as the leadership contest is over?
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: The Letter R on July 26, 2019, 12:59:42 pm
Quote from: zoony on July 26, 2019, 12:32:33 pmShouldn't this thread now be closed seeing as the leadership contest is over?
A sensible suggestion there - if only I could close it I would......
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: döm on July 26, 2019, 13:41:46 pm
Quote from: zoony on July 26, 2019, 12:32:33 pmShouldn't this thread now be closed seeing as the leadership contest is over?
Good point Zoony.  Mr Johnson probably warrants one of his own. Interesting times in UK politics
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: Matt2112 on July 26, 2019, 16:37:06 pm
Quote from: zoony on July 26, 2019, 12:32:33 pmShouldn't this thread now be closed seeing as the leadership contest is over?

Agreed - and with dom's post in response.
Title: Re: The Conservative Party Leadership Election of 2019
Post by: rufus the dawg on July 27, 2019, 08:53:15 am
Quote from: Nïckslïkk2112 on July 25, 2019, 08:56:54 amWhere is the democracy in the EU?
Come on Dogman, explain it to us, how we can we as "Europeans" influence the way the EU is run?

Nick, how do we influence any politician?.......ok......just the same way.

BTW cycle helmets. I do not know a thing about them and I bow to your knowledge on the matter. Maybe we did have a high regulation before the EU created theirs. The EU regulations are the minimum though. The UK can make them more tough if we want to. When the EU created the EU regulations on cycle helmets did that help save head injuries in countries within the EU that did not have any regulations on them? I do not know.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/smallbusiness/article-6861195/Hovding-pay-249-worlds-safest-cycling-helmet.html (https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/smallbusiness/article-6861195/Hovding-pay-249-worlds-safest-cycling-helmet.html)