Author Topic: Brexit watch  (Read 23998 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

döm

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13228
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1440 on: November 10, 2017, 11:00:51 AM »
Absolutely.  Working together with European partners makes so much sense when you consider the size and power of the likes of China and the US.  Leaving the EU is going to diminish  the UK's power and voice on the World stage, no doubt of that at all.  Realpolitik ftw.

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

Bisto

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
  • Meh!
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1441 on: November 10, 2017, 12:10:15 PM »

. The EU end game is a Centrally Controlled Federal European Superstate. End Of. It'll end in tears.



Yours perhaps....and that of those who have political and financial vested interests and who seek to keep their accumulated wealth, power and influence by keeping control over a long cherished and established status quo that has long been challenged and is inevitably changing;


The homogenisation, cultural drift and dilution of heritage that you seem to rail against has been gathering pace for hundreds of years, it's now happening at an exponential pace and is unstoppable....the best way that we can hope to prepare for the future is to be as involved in the processes that shape and determine it as possible...not retreat behind the chintz curtains and the ephemeral appeal of our own historical, cultural, tribal or national identities.  Nothing wrong with celebrating them but they won't save us or feed and clothe us or put a roof over our heads.


So, Rage against the dying of the light if you must, but our children's generation aren't quite so innocculated against the harsh realities of life that they are being forced to face as we and our parents were. They will have to equip themselves to work and live in different industries and ever changing environments and economic circumstances. They will have to be prepared to retrain and shift careers throughout their working life.


Take a look around you; we have a population of over 66.5m people which will reach 70m plus before the end of 2029...the majority of that increase will be through net immigration; the vast majority of that will be in the big Cities and their ever expanding metropolitan sprawls.

Rural life is dying, except as a two week break or a retirement aspiration...nobody is moving there to work the land or start up businesses  to provide local employment.


Popular Culture and Cultural identities are shifting at an ever more rapid pace. Your Children and Grandchildren will move and lose their accents and a lot of the vocabulary peculiar to your local region will be forgotten and with it the memory of the culture and heritage.

Great Britain only exists today as a concept, an ideal, a tourist destination... a marketing campaign.


Who really  rules and governs us....our own elected representatives or multi national corporations, the Media Barons and the USA?

As Dom (so much more succinctly put it) by attempting to go it on our own we isolate ourselves and become an irrelevance...who do we have influence over? We can't even elect a stable Government of our own, why should anybody take us seriously?

Fiiiiiiiinally.....not to get all too wanky and New Age about it but put simply, the future for our children,  the human race and the planet depends on compromise, embracing change, seeing past differences, breaking down barriers between "us and them" and cooperating to bring about real solutions to real world problems......urgh...I feel dirty just typing that phrase.
 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 18:02:45 PM by Bisto »
No good deed goes unpunished!

No amount of anxiety can change the future. No amount of regret can change the past.

The Letter R

  • TNMS Management
  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8304
  • If you want something done right...just forget it.
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1442 on: November 10, 2017, 12:59:07 PM »
Can't disagree with much of that I must say.


However the EU has itself to blame in many respects by continually trying to "power grab" legislation and laws to control itself centrally rather than allowing member states to look after their own affairs - but bizarrely goes mute when real trouble brews - ie Catalonia.
It's other main downfall is to keep allowing other far poorer Countries to join which unbalances the financial standing of the member states already there simply to try a re-draw the political map and surround Russia.


They have also rather shown themselves for what they are in the whole negotiating process - by refusing to budge on topics simply to show other states it's not a good idea to leave.


I voted to remain and still believe a place at the table to steer the changes is the best option but I can also see why the EU is hated by many and people are prepared to take the risk to go it alone.




Bisto

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
  • Meh!
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1443 on: November 10, 2017, 15:02:27 PM »
Can't disagree with much of that I must say.


However the EU has itself to blame in many respects by continually trying to "power grab" legislation and laws to control itself centrally rather than allowing member states to look after their own affairs - but bizarrely goes mute when real trouble brews - ie Catalonia.
It's other main downfall is to keep allowing other far poorer Countries to join which unbalances the financial standing of the member states already there simply to try a re-draw the political map and surround Russia.


They have also rather shown themselves for what they are in the whole negotiating process - by refusing to budge on topics simply to show other states it's not a good idea to leave.


I voted to remain and still believe a place at the table to steer the changes is the best option but I can also see why the EU is hated by many and people are prepared to take the risk to go it alone.


Agreed Keith, but perhaps ....just perhaps....that is at least partly because the UK has such a long history of  complaining, grandstanding, filibustering and negotiating disingenuously and in bad faith ...maybe it's years of having to put up with the school boy tactics of  Farrage and his self important, zenophobic acolytes?...and generally because British Politicians as a breed, and the Tory Government in particular, have been so consistently arrogant, superior and such a royal pain in the arse?


Has it occurred to anyone that....although they didn't encourage or want Brexit, now that the UK electorate have spoken...and following on from the sheer belligerence and staggering ineptitude of May, Davis and the negotiating team ...actually, the other member states are now glad to be rid of us and are indulging in a spot of long yearned for pay back?


Who could blame them if that were true?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 15:04:08 PM by Bisto »
No good deed goes unpunished!

No amount of anxiety can change the future. No amount of regret can change the past.

Nïckslïkk2112

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27657
  • Dull by day, asleep at night.
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1444 on: November 10, 2017, 19:41:57 PM »



Yours perhaps....and that of those who have political and financial vested interests and who seek to keep their accumulated wealth, power and influence by keeping control over a long cherished and established status quo that has long been challenged and is inevitably changing;


The homogenisation, cultural drift and dilution of heritage that you seem to rail against has been gathering pace for hundreds of years, it's now happening at an exponential pace and is unstoppable....the best way that we can hope to prepare for the future is to be as involved in the processes that shape and determine it as possible...not retreat behind the chintz curtains and the ephemeral appeal of our own historical, cultural, tribal or national identities.  Nothing wrong with celebrating them but they won't save us or feed and clothe us or put a roof over our heads.


So, Rage against the dying of the light if you must, but our children's generation aren't quite so innocculated against the harsh realities of life that they are being forced to face as we and our parents were. They will have to equip themselves to work and live in different industries and ever changing environments and economic circumstances. They will have to be prepared to retrain and shift careers throughout their working life.


Take a look around you; we have a population of over 66.5m people which will reach 70m plus before the end of 2029...the majority of that increase will be through net immigration; the vast majority of that will be in the big Cities and their ever expanding metropolitan sprawls.

Rural life is dying, except as a two week break or a retirement aspiration...nobody is moving there to work the land or start up businesses  to provide local employment.


Popular Culture and Cultural identities are shifting at an ever more rapid pace. Your Children and Grandchildren will move and lose their accents and a lot of the vocabulary peculiar to your local region will be forgotten and with it the memory of the culture and heritage.

Great Britain only exists today as a concept, an ideal, a tourist destination... a marketing campaign.


Who really  rules and governs us....our own elected representatives or multi national corporations, the Media Barons and the USA?

As Dom (so much more succinctly put it) by attempting to go it on our own we isolate ourselves and become an irrelevance...who do we have influence over? We can't even elect a stable Government of our own, why should anybody take us seriously?

Fiiiiiiiinally.....not to get all too wanky and New Age about it but put simply, the future for our children,  the human race and the planet depends on compromise, embracing change, seeing past differences, breaking down barriers between "us and them" and cooperating to bring about real solutions to real world problems......urgh...I feel dirty just typing that phrase.
 

And all joing together to become a Euroblok to rail against the Sovblok, Seppoblok, Sinoblok and Oceaniablok.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with International cooperation, see the likes of the ESA, CERN, NATO, even Airbus if you will, but the EU is founded on principles dating from the 1950s if not earlier and they still see the world in those terms.

Brexit doesn't mean insularity, we can cooperate all over the world with all sorts of people, heck, Brexit will have next to no effect on net migration even, if we want people they will come. The EU is a protetionist trade block which has the cheek to charge a membership fee for its "Free" markets. Nein danke mes amis :)

You only have to look at Barnier to see it's all about the money. If - and it is an if - we have monetary commitments to the EU post Brexit, then these commitments ought t be easily quantified, but it appears to be a very moveable feast, mainly based on "Give us all yer dosh"

And finally - for now ;) - any organisation that employs a Curly Watts as a Paedophile lookalike like Guy Verhofstadt needs to be avoided like the plague!
Legend in my own Mind


Slim

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29061
  • catch the taxi driver weeping like a wounded beast
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1445 on: November 10, 2017, 20:36:23 PM »
I won't pretend that I understand the political complexities of negotiating a post Brexit settlement...or that I have an understanding of what the UK economy will look like in the post Brexit settlement reality...the problem is that nobody does...anybody who pretends they have access to a Crystal ball is a fool, regardless of the colour of their political ideology....it seems to me that a lot (rather than all) of those who voted Brexit on ideological grounds aren't pragmatists at all but would be quite prepared to risk and even see the UK slide into economic and political obscurity just for the sake of their cherished ideals and principles.

That tweet definitely sums up the kind of bullish, naive, nostalgic longing for a vanished and fictitious past...often coloured by their own barely disguised inherent racism....when Britain was Great and the Mother of all Democracies...that I hear in the majority of Brexiters that I have encountered....little wonder that Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Nigel Mirage were the pro Brexit champions


If I had a Euro for every time I've heard something along the lines of;

"My Grandad/Dad fought in the 2nd World War to fight against totalitarianism and now Merkels achieving it through economic means...etc"

...I'd be living in Tuscany.....well....I'd have enough for a 2 week holiday anyway

I'm not casting nasturtions on anybody here....but if the cap fits...


I really think you're indulging a ridiculous stereotype. I honestly don't want the British Empire to control the lives of half of the people of Earth again. I just want my country to be governed by its own laws, to control its own borders, to manage its own sovereign territorial waters. To trade with whomever it wishes, on its own terms.

These principles are controversial almost nowhere except here in the UK, where apparently they amount to fascism. Oddly, no-one thinks the Finns, or the Zambians, or the Malaysians, or (etc etc) are rampant imperialist xenophobes because their own government is sovereign and independent with respect to their affairs. But here, it's a convenient stick that the terminally-backward British Left use to beat their own country and its people in their more self-loathing moments.

döm

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13228
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1446 on: November 13, 2017, 13:01:16 PM »
You're not comparing like with like there Slim.   Those countries had not developed their economy around a much wider single market.  It does seem  that country is about to commit an act of great self harm, in the name of sovereignty.  And has Bisto has mentioned how much more sovereign will the country be with MNCs and the likes of Murdoch calling the shots?


Valuing the EU is not the preserve of the left anyway.  In fact there are plenty on the left that share your views on leaving.


And there are plenty on the right who think that leaving is wrong too.


"Trading with who it wants on its own terms".  This will always be better served by being part of the EU.  As an independent nation the UK's sway around a negotiating table will be less and will have to settle for less of a deal than could have been achieved with power of the EU as a whole
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

DavidL

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2621
  • Music by Lee and Lifeson, Lyrics by Peart
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1447 on: November 13, 2017, 18:36:21 PM »

"Trading with who it wants on its own terms".  This will always be better served by being part of the EU.
Clearly incorrect. The EU negotiates using the aggregated terms of 28 member nations. The UK's best interests cannot be of prime importance in such deals.

döm

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13228
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1448 on: November 13, 2017, 22:29:59 PM »
Clearly incorrect. The EU negotiates using the aggregated terms of 28 member nations. The UK's best interests cannot be of prime importance in such deals.

The weight you can bring to the table is the most important thing.  The UK is going to look a lot skinnier when it starts to negotiate trade deals on its own.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 09:19:30 AM by döm »
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

NeilP

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30793
  • here comes the sun....
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1449 on: November 15, 2017, 08:51:54 AM »

Nïckslïkk2112

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27657
  • Dull by day, asleep at night.
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1450 on: November 15, 2017, 21:55:47 PM »
Anyone still think the article posted here in May is still tin foil hat stuff?


Yes.

Who are the Remoaners biggest culprits for the Brexit Vote? The OLD people.
Who are least likely to be active on social media and the internet? The OLD folk.

Who are the people most active on social media? The YOOF.
Who either couldn't be arse to vote or were more likely to favour Reamin? The YOOF

In a poll conducted among my family and friends - admittedly most of my family are no longer with us and I have no friends - none of them had their minds swayed by anything of this ilk. They had all decided on their voting intentions well in advance and didn't change them. Good old statistical proof :)

Legend in my own Mind


Nick

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
  • You lookin' at me?
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1451 on: November 15, 2017, 22:04:44 PM »
I don’t believe the U.K. youth were really spoken to or connected with during the campaign. It’s often up to the wiser elders to guide them. I remember speaking with youngsters before the vote and they were clueless ( I don’t mean that in a bad way), how do you know what you have got till it’s gone at their age?
Everybody's got to evalate from the norm.

DavidL

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2621
  • Music by Lee and Lifeson, Lyrics by Peart
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1452 on: November 15, 2017, 22:32:50 PM »
I don’t believe the U.K. youth were really spoken to or connected with during the campaign. It’s often up to the wiser elders to guide them. I remember speaking with youngsters before the vote and they were clueless ( I don’t mean that in a bad way), how do you know what you have got till it’s gone at their age?
You're right on both counts. The young were clueless  which led them to believe the Project Fear BS rather than make up their own minds and the elders were indeed wiser and voted in larger proportion to leave. Had the young been less clueless and taken their elders' wise counsel the majority vote to leave would have been larger. Instead they decided to slavishly follow the advice of their beloved celebs in the media who are overwhelmingly very noisy, liberal EU fanatics. Get a few decades of paying tax under your belts and things begin to look a little clearer.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 22:35:13 PM by DavidL »

Nïckslïkk2112

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27657
  • Dull by day, asleep at night.
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1453 on: November 15, 2017, 23:11:15 PM »
Well at least lovely Liam Fox's department are funding a bloke to tour Europe to heal Brexi divisions

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41996872
Legend in my own Mind


döm

  • TNMS Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13228
Re: Brexit watch
« Reply #1454 on: November 15, 2017, 23:47:09 PM »
I see the EU is to fight the US re the Bombardier plane issue.
Hopefully it will be resolved before March 2019
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!